Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

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Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:34 pm

On this post i want to expose some questions that i got about measuring for a flat response and for achivieng a subjective curve that my ears like. Before i start my questions i want to pre-apoligize for my bad english, im from Mexico and i dont have much practice on the language. Well, first of all, i will introduce my self to all the community, im a producer, arranger, composer, musician and recording engineer here on Mexico, and i also have a bachellors degree on Electronics and Communications Engineering. Im in the process to be on my own, so i mounted my own recording studio 3 years ago, same years that im being fighting with my room. After reading a lot of material on books, internet, following the recommendations of Ethan Winer, Bob Hodas and a lot of people in this businees on their websites, i finally got a decent frecuency response, reververation times, delay group, total harmonic distorsion and phases, but my surprise was that it sounds to bright for my taste, so i tried to implement the B and K curve or what ever other target curves are out there, and here is where my questions starts.

1. What is better from an acoustical point of view ?, achivieng the target curve based on acoustical measurements and subjective listening? or

2. Get the flatest response across all the 20/20 range and then equalize the monitors to a target curve? (also based on measuring)

I did both of the methods and i liked the last one, cause even if i put a large amounts of bass on my monitors with an eq (only for experiment) they keep sounding transparent, also the speakers seames to sound less stressed, i have now a decente translation of my music productions to other enviroments, but i wanna now the answer to this questions cause i dont wanna be wrong with my aproach for a good listening enviroment. Sorry for bother you with such long post i hope it dont be boring for the experienced guys here on the forum. Ill be waiting for responses and thanks for all the help you can gave me.

ups i almost forgot my numbre 3 question....

3. I dont know if i didnt understood something on my readings but, the goal of achivieng an acoustical flat room curve its different from the listening target curve???

Thanks again, see you.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby bert stoltenborg » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:32 pm

I would like to see the measurements.
If you view life with the knowledge that there are no problems, only opportunities, you are a marketing manager.......this is my personal philosophy
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:34 pm

I will post the measurment graphics as soon i can Bert, but first i will like to add some information that maybe it can be usefull to analize best my situation here.

The rig im using for measurements is:
A ECM8000 mic by behringer as it comes from fabric.
Fuzzmeasure 3.2.4
DAW Digi002
Monitors Yamaha HS80M and their Sub HS10W
A Mac G5

The dimensions of the room are horrible, (worst case scenario calculated by RPG according to Bob Golds Room Modes Calculator)

Lenght: 182 inches, Width: 92 inch and High: 90 inch.

According to that same calculator my recommended reverberation times (RT60) where +/- 50 ms from 200 hz to 4 khz = 106 to 206 ms
+/- 300 ms at 63 hz = 456 ms. (I got almost this ones but in a T30 view, im not an acoustics expert so i dont know if this is completely right i just read something on a site that recommended to see it on T30 for small rooms i dont remember wich site was.)
Total absortion required 272 sabines. So i treated the 48 % of the room.

Like i said, im gona post the graphics as soon as i can, thanks for all the help you can gave me.

Regards, Mike.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:52 pm

HERE ARE THE GRAPHICS AND ALSO I CAN SEND YOU THE FUZZMEASURE FILE I YOU WANT IT (ITS A 32 MB FILE SO I CANT POST IT HERE) ALSO IM JUST POSTING ONE SIDE OF THE MONITORS CAUSE THE OTHER ONE ITS VERY SIMILAR.

LEFT SIDE EDC ROOM RESPONSE.png
THE ORIGINAL ROOM RESPONSES
(33.43 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE ETC ROOM.png
(70.36 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE GROUPDELAY ROOM.png
(38.16 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE HDPERC ROOM.png
(28.06 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE ROOM RESPONSE 1TO12.png
(43.86 KiB) Not downloaded yet


NEXT ARE A GROUP OF GRAPHICS FOR MY SUBJECTIVE LISTENING CURVE, EQUALIZATION OVER THE ORIGINAL RESPONSE (NOT FOR CORRECTION JUST FOR LISTENING MIXING PURPOUSE)
LEFT SIDE EDC SUBJECTIVE RESPONSE.png
(32.7 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE ETC SUBJECTIVE.png
(66.07 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE GROUPDELAY SUBJECTIVE.png
(35.92 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE HDPERC SUBJECTIVE.png
(27.9 KiB) Not downloaded yet

LEFT SIDE SUBJECTIVE RESPONSE 1TO12.png
(49.11 KiB) Not downloaded yet


HOPE THIS GRAPHICS ARE USEFULL THEY ARE IN A 1 OVER 12 PER OCTAVE RESOLUTION ALSO IM GONA POST MY T30 AND MY WATERFALLS ON OTHER REPLY.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:57 pm

HERE ARE MY T30 AND WATERFALL GRAPHICS I THINK THAT CAUSE THIS IS A FIRST REVIEW YOU WANNA SEE THE ENTIRE RANGE, LET ME KNOW PLEASE IF YOU NEED SPLITED GRAPHICS OF THE LOW END AND THE REST OF THE RANGE.

T30 GRAPHICS

T30 TIMES ROOM.jpg
(295.37 KiB) Not downloaded yet

T30 TIMES SUBJECTIVE.jpg
(291.21 KiB) Not downloaded yet


WATERFALLS
WATERFALL PLOT ROOM.png
WATERFALL PLOT ROOM.png (68.2 KiB) Viewed 12993 times

WATERFALL PLOT SUBJECTIVE.png
WATERFALL PLOT SUBJECTIVE.png (71.89 KiB) Viewed 12993 times
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:38 pm

IM TRYING TO GET THE FILE OF THE WATERFALLS RIGHT BUT I DONT KNOW WHY FUZZMEASURE ITS DOING RARE THINGS WHIT THAT GRAPHICS WHEN I EXPORT THEM, HERE ARE ONCE AGAIN.
ROOM RESPONSE.png
(273.02 KiB) Not downloaded yet

SUBJECTIVE RESPONSE.png
(268.63 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby bert stoltenborg » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:32 pm

Those responses don't look to bad.
Forget the group delay and other stuff, concentrate on the frequency responses.
Those are not to bad.
In the first one there is a dip.
Could be the sub needs some other position as it looks like a phase eroor.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:52 pm

Oh yes that dip, was there from the beginning and has been one of my biggest problems in controlling the acustics of my room its there even with out the sub, in fact the sub is helping a lot to my main monitors, with out it is more way huge, im gona try your recommendation about positioning but sorry for asking you again about my original question, its my aproach right?, may i shot for the flattest curve first and then equalizing for perception? or its just a problem about getting more flat my bass region to fell more bass? also im afraight that if i use more bass trapping im gona start loosing a lot of high frecuencies and also im afraight of getting to low on my reverberation times and ending with a extremly dry and unpleaseant room.Thanks for your preciouss time and help.

Regards,

Mike
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby bert stoltenborg » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:10 pm

Nothing wrong with creating a nice straight curve and then EQ a little bit.
If you view life with the knowledge that there are no problems, only opportunities, you are a marketing manager.......this is my personal philosophy
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Scott R. Foster » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:40 pm

also im afraight that if i use more bass trapping im gona start loosing a lot of high frecuencies and also im afraight of getting to low on my reverberation times and ending with a extremly dry and unpleaseant room.


Yes.

This is why is very small rooms you want all your absorbers to be very thick. Thin stuff sucks out highs and doesn't help on the real problem = lows.

And do what Bert sez - move that sub around and try everywhere you can - maybe mount the sub where your ears go = the listening position - and take a bunch of shots with the measurement mic to find the flattest response in the low range - then put the sub in that spot and measure from the LP to see if that is still as good as it gets.
SRF
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:35 pm

Thank you very much for your replyies im gona refine my room even more and in another time im gona show you the new graphics.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:45 am

Well i did some changes based just on repositioning my monitors and my sub, Also i noticed that what i was measuring with the behringer mic it didnt correlate well with my ears so i tried some shots with a Krk ergo mic that i have, and it was so different, yet i dont have a perfectly flat response and i have to use an eq to get my frecuencies better just until i can retreat the room, but is best that nothing. Well here´s what i did:

1. I moved my monitors to a position where my low end was the flatest, shoting just for the main with out the sub (even when i know that my room its not getting me enough bass, the behringer mic was given me lectures of more bass that what i got, thats why i have to retreat the room, i did all with the behringer mic), but i tried for the less peaks/dips graph on the low end and i didt care to much about the peaks on the mids.

2. Did the same process with the sub, this time it gave me a flatest response with out the huge dip that i had. (I measured the sub along with out the main monitor)

3. I did an electro acustical recalibration on my monitors shoting for the 83 dbs. (Then when a i measured all the system i was sad because i saw that i dont got bass on my room)

4. I tame some peaks on the mid and upper mid region and did a compensation for the bass that i dont got on my room.

5. Tried some bass walkups (they sound even, more or less), and songs, also tried to mastering on well done jobs from other people, it didnt let me equalize anything so i think that its better, and well.... I can hear all the range now, its artificially done yes but is working even more than last time, and i got a flat line on the analizer, so i think that i have a really bad behringer mic.

So my next goal is to buy a well calibrated microphone from earthworks maybe, or, i also have the option to send my behringer to calibration i dont know wich one its gone be but i must do that if i want to be more confident on my measurements. So the lesson that i got from this was, ¨Dont try to tune your room if you dont have a well calibrated mic, cause flat in a bad calibrated mic is gona sound bad.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby bert stoltenborg » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:15 am

Behringer ECM 8000 mics normally aren't bad. In the lows they are mostly the same, in the highs they can differ +/- 2 dB, nothing to cause you to sleep bad.
Maybe cheapest is to buy a new one and compare it to the one you have.
If they differ one of 'm is bad.
Seeing your measurements I wouldn't suspect the mic to be faulty.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Scott R. Foster » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:40 pm

I aint too sure about Bert's "buy another sort of good, but still a little crappy mic" plan - but they are cheap and that would reveal gross errors.

I feel you are in a situation [a very small room] where even a very accurate mic - fresh from the calibration tree - is kinda useless because I could wiggle you graphs all over the place just moving your mic [your listening position] a few centipillars - much less a whole cubit! Getting all of the room's acoustic interactions perfectly balanced in position / superposition is so non-trivial in very small rooms that even moving your head a few inches makes a difference. At some point you just gotta roll with it.

My $0.02 is you'd be best served using the mic to pick a spot without gross errors and then putting most of your time/money into very thick corner absorbers and then 100mm panels on the earliest reflection points - double check with the mic - fiddle around a bit more with speaker placement - and call it done - go back to making music.

Then as you budget allows get a nice set of headphones and learn to use them for a quick reality check of your final mixes. maybe a pair of these from the middle of the line?

http://www.gradolabs.com/page_headphones.php

Then when/if you start making any real money on the endeavor - get a bigger room.
SRF
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:40 pm

Thanks a lot for your replyies i will consider your suggestions on the future, im gona make my room bigger cause i have the space, and after 3 years of working to gods will i have the money now to do it, but right now i have to finish 3 productions that i have and thats what im worried about right now, also i wanned to learn some of acoustics on my own but for the new room im gona hire an acoustician and of course still asking about a lot of doubts and questions that i have about acustics, the good thing about all this process is that in some way it helped me to refine my ear and critical listening skils a litle bit more if not so much.

About the mic.... , instead of buying another cheap one, can i compare it to the low end of my radioshack meter to know some how if it is on the spot???? , the problem to me on mixing is the low end, most of my clients are asking me for well balanced mids and omni present voices and every time i tried to get a flat line with the behringer id ended with translations that had scooped mids and more bass than the references they are sending me cause that flat line, also on a lot of my readings i found the B and K curve and variations of it, rolled highs, boosts and high roll offs, etc, etc, a lot guessing things that lead you to bad interpretations and also to think that something is wrong with a lot of the stuff i have, also asked a lot of friends working right now on big studios and every one have a different target curve or aproach to studio acoustics, some ones tells you about a roll off starting on the 4k and others, well, you now to me its frustrating that it seems that even on this modern age we cant have and standard for music production. So, im gonna leave the things like they are right now cause my ear liked the way it sounds, and in my Sennheiser HD 280 pro headphones the translation its getting me more balanced mids, much like the references they are sending me, of course maybe are gonna be some mistakes on my desicions but at least im more closely to the taste of my clients.

Thanks a lot for your help.

PD: All this started cause i couldt found an acoustician near my area, if you can help find one near to me or tell me were i can find the info i will apreciated, i live on Mexico near to the border with Yuma, Arizona, USA, thanks a lot. (the ones on the yellow pages dont longer exist)
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby DanDan » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:01 pm

I have heard of problems with the current ECM8000 http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8788400-post10.html
IMO while the mics in cheap SLM's can be used relatively, I have seen trouble there too. Noise, DC on the output etc.
Dayton sell mics Calibrated for 0,45,90 degrees at a very honest price. Cross Spectrum Labs seem decent also.
The Bruel&Kjaer curve is quite similar to the one here on Understanding RTA.
As a Mix and Mastering Engineer I always creative a HF roll off on the speakers or by Eq.
I have never been able to even stay in a 'flat' room, not to mind trying to do work in one. They are just way way too bright to my ear.
Currently I am Beta Testing Dirac Live. This is a Room Eq application which allows for a Target Curve.
Over time I have settled on the following curve.
30-1000Hz 0dB
10KHz -3.5dB
15K-5dB
20K-6dB

Fwiw, the HD280 is a sealed headphone. I think you would find an open offering from Sennheiser much more translating friendly. Even an affordable one. I have used the 450/480 for decades. and am currently enjoying the 650. (HF rolled off version of the 600)

DD
Last edited by DanDan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Scott R. Foster » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:00 am

Make a few and pic out one you like?

http://www.johncon.com/john/wm61a/
SRF
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby bert stoltenborg » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:49 pm

Now that's a fine list, Mr Foster!
If you view life with the knowledge that there are no problems, only opportunities, you are a marketing manager.......this is my personal philosophy
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Speedskater » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:44 pm

Aren't the Panasonic WM61A Electret Microphone's out of production?
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Scott R. Foster » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:00 pm

SRF
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