Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:32 am

NICE INFORMATION DANDAN I ALREADY ORDERED A MIC FROM SPECTRUM LABS HOPING THAT IT CAN DO A BETTER JOB FOR CRITICAL DECISIONS ON ACOUSTICS. AND FOR THE REST THAT YOU EXPRESS ON YOUR MESSAGE THATS EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN I ALSO HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM MY EAR CAN STAND FOR A COMPLETELY FLAT RESPONSE (MEASURED) SO I TRYED SOME TARGET CURVES, RIGHT NOW IM DOING SOME TESTS WITH A CURVE THAT HAVE A 6db bump from 20 to 100 hz and going down about 2db per 1/3 octave to 250 hz then flat from there and starts to roll off on 8Khz about 2db per 1/3 octave to 20 khz ( I GOT THAT FROM OTHER FORUM AND ALSO SEEMS LIKE APROACHES THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF BOB HODAS IN HIS SITE). AT FIRST TRY APARENTLY DID A WELL JOB BUT I STARTED NOTICE THAT MY BASS REPRODUCCION DOESNT SOUND WELL SO IM GONA TRY THE CURVE YOU ARE SUGGESTING, BUT I STILL HAVE MY INITIAL QUESTION IN THE AIR, IF A LOT OF ACOUSTICIANS SAY ¨DONT USE AN EQ¨, ÏTS BETTER WITH ACOUSTICS¨, SO THEN SHOULD I SHOT FOR MY PREFERED CURVE USING ACOUSTICS? OR SHOULD I SHOT FOR A PERFECTLY FLAT MEASURED RESPONSE AND THEN USE AN EQUALIZER AND SOME TRICKS (MODIFIED FILES ON CALIBRATION MICS ON FUZZMEASURE TO SEE MY PREFERED CURVE AS A FLAT LINE) TO ACHIVE THE TARGET CURVE, I STILL CANT REALIZE THE PROPER ANSWER TO THIS. HOPE SOME DAY I CAN LEARN.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Scott R. Foster » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:22 am

Have are you doing this - have you tried a simple 1/f pink noise distribution?

FWIW that's how I do it - from about 40 Hz up to about 10k - after that I can barely hear it any way, so I just make sure there is some content way up high and call it sorted, + maybe put a rising tail on it if I have constant directivity horns [not cause I can hear 18k but I was told it was needed by horn guys - so I just ask a random kid if the tinkly bits sound OK and after he helps me out I give him a cigarette].

But I do more PA stuff so what do I know.

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_noise
SRF
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby DanDan » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:50 pm

I think in reality most acousticians will say don't use Eq FIRST. By far the biggest issues in any room are caused by reflections. Short or single ones, SBIR, or rebounding repeating ones, Modes.
You cannot Eq a reflection. So we do as much treatment as possible then move on to other aspects of the listening chain.
A typical speaker these days will be two or three way, ideally IMO with controls for each driver. So we adjust these levels towards flatness or a desired Target Curve.
But that's Eq isn't it. Nobody objects to using the Eq on the speakers.
I see no difference or issue with using or including an external Eq. Many speakers have DSP crossovers and corrective EQ internally.
These often apply filters to help the drivers but many feature Digital Room Correction too.
Eq at the final stage can be used to define the desired Target Curve more precisely than the controls on an active speaker. With passive speakers it's a godsend. I find 0.5dB changes quite audible.
The same Eq can tame rogue low modes and even anomalies in the speaker.

There are times when room treatment is impossible. Temporary locations, rented accomodation. In these cases Eq is remarkably successful at making a small listening area very useable.
Of course EQ is totally the norm in Live Sound.
DD
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:37 am

I got my new dayton EMM-6 calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs today, and i can say that it doesnt matter what other people said all over the net, about that its not so important to have a well calibrated mic, well guess what.... theres a lot of difference beetwen my uncalibrated Behringer Mic and the new one from cross spectrum labs, specially on the highs i even dont feel the need of a high roll off with these one and i can shot for a perfectly flat line that it doesnt seem bright, yes i still need to put some bass management theory on practice, but from a series of subjective listening tests (did with and eq and ear, and tones and etc...) it seems that with this mic im aproaching more to dolby recommendations (i have a paper from them explaining bass management), cause from my last test doing just by ear on adjusting my monitoring system and then measuring to compare, i got on my fuzzmeasure window a 10 db ¨flat boost on the lows from 20 to 100 hz then a sweet down slope to 0 db at 200 hz and from there almost completely flat till 20Khz, again this is what my ear likes to hear and it seems to match with the 10 db boost on the sub level recommended on Dolbys Paper, of course i still have some modes, nulls and peaks on my room and the next step is gona be to modify my room but for me, a lot of things was a matter of confidence on the tools that im using, for sure i cant know if the mic is perctly well calibrated, but the fact that a lab like CSL did the job, gives me more confidence on one of the tools im using, i also found and acoustician on LA that it does online consulting and i hope that with his help and the things that i learned and that im still learning can reach the next level on my recording studio. Gona let you know later the progress on my trip to the next level, thanks to all the people posting on this one.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:56 pm

Ok, here is another of my experiments on tuning my studio the hardway, jajajajaja (by me using on hand tools, semi acoustics, eq, etc.) the first curve that i mentioned with the 10 db boost was done equing music on my system, but some people and readings say that you have to hear all frecuencies at the same level and that its in fact the ¨flat response so i did it again with pure tones and an eq, then measure it and my correlation to the measuring results was a B weighting curve, so i implemented the curve on my calibration file, then did repositioning of my monitors to achive the flatest without eq, then a little of eq was used to tame the peaks and it seems that all frecuencies are sounding at equal level perception for levels of 65 to 85 dbs, have to check for translation but it seems more consistent sound, more clear transients, some music sounds a little brigh, other a little dull, some a little beat boomy and some a little bass shorty, so i supouse that for my ear its a better matching curve, but how i said, have to check for translation. Im doing a lot of experimentation cause i dont buy the ¨flat¨ myth, yes i worked on profesional studios away in the past, by maybe many of you are gona agreed with me that we are not always involved on acoustics in the recording studio, cause generaly we are not the owners, and also the hearing memory is to short to remember how a well tuned studio must sound, and you room also tricks that part of the perception process, yea you know the theory maybe but put it on practice by your own its another animal. Also my conclusions are leading me to this cause when i do mastering i was getting the high frecuencies sloped upwards on a view of 4.5 db on my spectrograph (i tend to use that as a guide cause the recordings i like most show that kind of nice flat distribution on that view) whit this curve at least on a graphical way im shotting that same ranges, it translates well to my headphones (neutral on them with nice controled mids), but i need to do some test for out studio situations. Well, see you on another of my crazy posts.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:47 pm

Ok here are my last conclusion about the new mic that im testing calibrated by cross spectrum labs, after another series of tests i noticed that with the alan parson audio test cd i had to do some eq on the samples sounds, and in theory that are well recorded sounds that dont need eq, also another set of tones and noises lead me to different results, so my conclusions are the next ones:
1. My room its so small and have so bad proportions and issues that leads you to wrong perceptions on a lot of things if you are trying to do things by ear and then measure.
2. The mic from cross spectrum labs seems to have a high roll off implemented from the cal process, so completly flat line on fuzzmeasure was the best option on measuring my room, cause when i set it like this it doesnt sound bright any more, so my conclusion its that a well calibrated mic has to be used like it is, with out the need of implementing a high roll off or any other target curve at least the ones from CSL.
3. I still have a lot of deviations on the ultra low range and the range from 40 to 100 hz, and even when some people say that from 40 to 20 Hz its not so important cause we cant here it, guess what, my ear are asking for that part of the spectrum to make more acertive decisions on mixing and mastering.
4. On the high frecuencies the other mics that i have, made me think that i was short on highs, so i was fighting for get more of them and that was leading me to bright monitors.
5. With this mic, my bass region sounds tight, its souns a little bit weak cause i still have a lot of nulls and peaks, but its better.
6. I think its time to start the process to loss the eq on my monitor chain, and take the room to the next level, now that i have a tool that gives me confidence on what im doing and can help me more to be sincronized with the acoustic consultant, that way when he come to my place to do fine tuning things are gona be closer to his specifications.

Whell, I think this post is gona be my last one untill i get my room correctly treated and re-dimensioned, im gona post in about 2 or 3 months new graphics and photos about my new room, also whatever usefull information that my acoustic consultant gives me, hoping that can helps all the people that are fighting with small rooms out there just like me, and that are not acoustics experts, and that maybe they can neither pay for a consultant. All this process that i was trought it wasnt cause i didnt had the budget to hire a consultant, it was more a matter of learning for my self new things, also helps me a lot to develop more hearing skills, and even with my mixing and mastering techniques, some time doing mistakes on your learning process leads you to refine other skills, even if you think that they are not so well correlated. See you later. :)
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Mon May 27, 2013 9:01 pm

Hi to every one here on the forum, im starting with the remodelation of my studio and we are gona start with the isolation of my rooms, my post its to ask to some of the experts that are here, what do they think of this material that i found ( http://www.velis.com.mx/pForzzaAcustik.html) for using it instead of vinyl barrier, i found it on the net and did call my attention so my intention its to share it to every one here and at the same time know if its a good option. Thanks to all of you replying, see you later.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby Bob » Mon May 27, 2013 9:22 pm

from the link

Forzza Acustik es un aislante acústico acrílico elastómerico, en emulsión acuosa, de aplicación en frío. Elaborado con resinas estiren-acrílicas que brindan excelentes características de adherencia a cualquier tipo de sustrato, así como gran elasticidad y durabilidad, siendo un recubrimiento aislante acústico.

El sonido es una energía transmitida por ondas que hacen vibrar las superficies, transmitiendo así el sonido. FORZZA ACUSTIK absorbe la energía del sonido y la disipa por vibración. Mientras más gruesa sea la película, mayor será su capacidad de absorber energía sónica, evitando así transferencia del sonido.

USOS
•Se usa como recubrimiento de aislamiento acústico en techos, paredes, y pisos de concreto, asbesto, madera, lozeta, entre otros, en casas habitación, departamentos bares, fábricas, bodegas, oficinas, etc.
•Por su película y agregados flexibles es un excelente aislante acústico

VENTAJAS
•Proporciona una excelente protección ante el ruido, debido a su capacidad de aislamiento acústico.
•No forma barrera de vapor, permitiendo una gran adherencia al sustrato.
•Puede aplicarse sobre pinturas ya existentes que se encuentren en buen estado.
•Es ecológico ya que no contiene solventes orgánicos ni contaminantes tóxicos o dañinos ya que es hecho en base agua.
•Rápida aplicación y excelente manejabilidad.

HERRAMIENTAS DE APLICACIÓN
•Brocha, rodillo o llana, en capas delgadas de 1mm.

MÉTODO DE APLICACIÓN

Aplicarse sobre un sustrato limpio, seco y en buenas condiciones (sellado de fisuras o grietas existentes en la misma).

Por cada mano de aplicación, la película deberá formar un espesor de 1 mm, así mismo se recomienda que cada una de las capas se aplique perpendicular una de otra( ejemplo 1ª. dirección vertical, 2ª dirección horizontal) llegando al final de la aplicación a una película de 5 mm ya que con esta película formada, ACUSTIK FORZZA reducirá el sonido 30 dB (Deci Beles).

RENDIMIENTO TEÓRICO

20 m2 a 0.8 mm de espesor . El rendimiento puede variar dependiendo de la rugosidad y la naturaleza de la superficie.


http://www.velis.com.mx/pForzzaAcustik.html


google translate
Forzza Acustik is an elastomeric acrylic acoustic insulation, in aqueous emulsion, cold applied. Made with styrene-acrylic resins which provide excellent adhesion to any type of substrate as well as high elasticity and durability, being a sound-insulating coating.

Sound is a wave transmitted energy surfaces that vibrate, thus transmitting sound. Acustik FORZZA absorbs sound energy and dissipates vibration. The thicker the film, the greater its ability to absorb sound energy, preventing sound transfer.


USES
• coating is used as sound insulation in ceilings, walls, and concrete floors, asbestos, wood, slate tiled, among others, in family houses, apartments bars, factories, warehouses, offices, etc..
• For his film and flexible aggregates is an excellent acoustic insulation

ADVANTAGES
• Provides excellent protection against noise, due to its sound-insulating capacity.
• No vapor barrier shape, allowing high adhesion to the substrate.
• Can be applied over existing coatings that are in good condition.
• It is ecological because it contains no organic solvents or toxic or harmful pollutants as it is done in water based.
• Fast application and excellent handling.

APPLICATION TOOLS
• Brush, roller or trowel, in thin layers of 1mm.

METHOD OF APPLICATION

Apply on a clean substrate, dry and in good condition (sealing cracks or cracks in it).

For each hand application, the film should be a thickness of 1 mm, so it is recommended that each of the layers is applied perpendicular to one another (eg 1st. Vertical direction 2nd horizontal direction) near the end of the application a film of 5 mm because this film formed, reduce the sound FORZZA acustik 30 dB (Decision Beles).

THEORETICAL

20 m2 to 0.8 mm thick. Performance may vary depending on the roughness and the nature of the surface.


I'm guessing it's another Green Glue.
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Re: Which is the best way for achive a subjective curve?

Postby maikdoterra » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:56 pm

Hi to everyone, im here posting again, now with another of my big questions, you know even when im gona hire an acoustician for my room design, im still studying acoustics and trying to learn the hard way (empiric and asking), so i was asking my self a lot of questions like this, on a lot of sites i have seen different information, books, video workshops, brochures, and in all of them i have seen different curves for the monitors for example phantom focal system shows one that seems like the B and K curve only that more steped from 6 db on the lows to 0 db on the highs, on an acoustics workshop on youtube i saw also a curve from 10 db on the lows to 0 db on the highs, other people say completely straight line, etc, etc, the main thing that i think i was missing its the relation between the frequency curve of the reverberation and the steady state frequency. So my questions are, if we are looking for a sound that sounds neutral, natural and even to our ears, the final sound were looking for is the combined response in time and frequency?, thats why are so many target curves?, thats why seems like every one have different aproaches?, that why is so confusing?, at the end, the combined response must relate with some of the weighting curves (this is cause some acousticians say that they tweek the system depending on the listener volume preferences)?, thats why every room have a unique solution?, does the 3d final frequency response have to match the ear?, yea i know those are a lot of questions but i saw to much things on acoustics that it seems more like a mess than a consisten information or standard, i saw people and papers aiming for what it looks like a smiley face curve on the reververation curve and then shot for a completly flat line on the field frequency response measure, others that shot for a flat curve on reverb frecuency and then shot for a sloped curve on frecuency, for last, does all this things depends on the modal distribution of your room to take the final desicion on what we want to achieve?. I hope that some expert can help me educate my self with this subject, cause las night was reading a book of acoustics that said.... ¨if the student understands the theory here exposed he will gona be abble to shot for any frecuency curve he wants....¨, so that phrase make me think all of this questions im posting here. Acoustics and Psychoacoustics its a big and complex subject, but i dont want to learn all of them just the ones related with the music industry. Thanks for all the replies you can give me, see you soon.
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