UK source of quiet extractor fans please?

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UK source of quiet extractor fans please?

Postby MarkEdmonds » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:54 pm

I am going to plumb in a simple air extraction system for my studio room. The way I am planning to do this is:

A single vent in the middle of the ceiling, tubing running to fan unit which then vents out through a chimney stack.

The fan will be outside the studio room on the other side of a double brick wall.

I am planning to keep the hosing as non-linear as possible because I think it might reduce the chance of the fan noise travelling down the hose into the room. Underneath all the tubing in the room side will be 100mm thickness RW3.

I am looking for a subtle change of air in the room rather than a major extractor.

The two most suitable I have found so far are at:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/ ... index.html

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MRMRK100M.html

Before I actually get down to detailed planning on the installation, I was wondering if anyone knows of a better solution - maybe there is a known best-of-breed for this type of ventilation?

Many thanks for any advice.

Mark
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Re: UK source of quiet extractor fans please?

Postby Paul Woodlock » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:18 pm

MarkEdmonds wrote:I am going to plumb in a simple air extraction system for my studio room. The way I am planning to do this is:

A single vent in the middle of the ceiling, tubing running to fan unit which then vents out through a chimney stack.

The fan will be outside the studio room on the other side of a double brick wall.

I am planning to keep the hosing as non-linear as possible because I think it might reduce the chance of the fan noise travelling down the hose into the room. Underneath all the tubing in the room side will be 100mm thickness RW3.

I am looking for a subtle change of air in the room rather than a major extractor.

The two most suitable I have found so far are at:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/ ... index.html

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MRMRK100M.html

Before I actually get down to detailed planning on the installation, I was wondering if anyone knows of a better solution - maybe there is a known best-of-breed for this type of ventilation?

Many thanks for any advice.

Mark



Greetings Mark

I have quite a powerful fan for my ventllation ( I'm using it to vent the computer cabinet as well )

APART from the vent splitter silencers I used to prevent the holes in the wall from destroying the soundproofing, I ALSO really quieted the fan by building my own silencers.

I built a box with a chicken wire tube inside and filled the rest of with loose rockwool ( Loft insulation type ) - it works BRILLIANT!!!!

For quiet ventilation you need to make sure the velocity of the airflow is at a minimum. This can be done by a larger area of duct ( multiple ducts can do this also )

Sorry for the hurried response - in the middle of a session.


Paul
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Postby Bob » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:04 pm

You're looking for quiet fans, two words which seem to form an oxymoron.
I bought what should have been a quiet bathroom fan, and wasn't. It was 10db louder than the advertisement, measured at 3'.

Obviously, putting the fan in-line and several feet down a pipe outside of your room will reduce the noise. I think it also decreases the airflow.

Anyway, for smaller fans that can be used to cool equipment or computers, several people from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... did=355599 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... did=364027 contributed to this exerpt
The comair rotron tip was right on. The WR2A1 moves 48CFM at ony 27 dB (If I recall). I use these at work to replace noisier muffin fans in an attempt to reduce background noise for personnel.

You can pick up an attic fan thermostat at HD (~$19) or at Grainger, also pick up a female electrical cord end and a male electrical cord end (~$2 each). Then pick up a 9V AC/DC transformer, 600mA (at least) from Parts Express (~$5). And finally, pick up 2 Panaflo FBA08A12L1A fans. These are widely regarded as the best, quietest fans you can buy. They go for about $5 each. Now here comes the fun part.
Wire the male electrical cord end to the attic thermostats incoming AC line. Wire the female electrical cord end to the attic thermostats outgoing AC line. Wire the fans in parallel to the 9V transformers output. Plug the male electrical cord end into any outlet and plug the 9V transformer into the female cord end. Set the temperature that you would like on the attic fan thermostat.
Now regardless of whether your equipment is on or not, if your cabinet gets above the set temperature, the attic fan thermostat will kick on and turn on the fans. If the fans are too loud with 9V (doubt it) you can wire a rheostat onto the 9V outlet and turn all the fans down.

The overall "cooling vs. noise" champ has to be the Zalman 7000AlCu. Its cooling ability at 7V and 5V is outstanding, only a bit louder than the much poorer performing 80mm Panaflo combinations

I went with the Papst 8412NGL cooling fan, Radio Shack 3-12 VDC power supply, and the NoiseKiller 80 gaskets. It all works great and I can only hear the fan when the sound is turned off. I normally run at the 9v setting which produces about 10 dB of noise, since the 12v setting produces about 12 dB.
Regards
Bob Golds
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:04 am

Paul and Bob, thanks for the replies. Just goes to show how exchanging ideas makes you think better.

A fan is a fan. Why did I think that a room extractor fan should be any different in principle to a computer case fan?

Previously, I was thinking of going for that expensive insultated loft fan but now I'm thinking, why not simply build one? I've got loads of old 92mm computer fans (some Zalmans), a really chunky ex-Supermicro PSU and a few speed controllers. I could stack maybe half a dozen fans in-line in some sort of box, hook up the hosing, wrap the box is Paul's chicken wire insulator and I've just saved myself nearly 200 quid.

Thanks alot chaps!

Mark
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Postby Scott R. Foster » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:03 pm

Mark:

What I would do is buy a good quality in-line exhaust fan like one of these:

http://www.farreys.com/ventilation/exha ... _fans.html

Let's say that the fan you chose takes a 6" duct connection.

Then I'd run the goes-inta side with an grill [register] with an 8" outlet [one size larger to reduce velocity] and run the 8" insulated [soft] duct from that inlet layed out in an ess shape run.

I'd run that 8" duct [after going in a big ess] into a junction box of duct board. These are sold in cheap kits that fold up into a cube or tetrahedron for connecting the legs of mutli-duct runs... you just fold em up and put you connectors into the resulting box and tape em up.

From that junction box I'd then connect a 6" duct [normal sized for the fan] run of duct that also runs in an ess shape from the box to the fan. Then just run the goes-outta side of the fan to vent as in a normal installation.

Mount the fan far away and run the switch back to a convenient location... If you provide at least modest mechanical disconnection of the fan mount from your room's structure, I bet you won't hear it at all... and the only added cost wil be a dozen feet or so of extra duct and a small junction box.

My $0.02
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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:11 pm

Greetings Mark

I'd go with scotts sugegstion for the fan.

My fan is this http://www.ventaxia.com/awwebstore/products/roofunits/euroflow.asp#tech


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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:22 pm

Greetrings Mark,

regarding decoupling the fan structural noise, I installed mine in a double skinned mdf box, the inner skin mounted on foam pads. Loose rockwool between the skins.

I made 2 flexible short duct couplers out of a an old pair of the woman's leather trousers, and glued to two MDF flanges. Works great. Either side of this were the rockwool-chicken wire silencers.

The fan in free air is noisy noisy noisy!! . now it's silent.

Paul
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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:33 pm

axial computer fans have no torque compared to a decent centrifugal fan. I doubt they'll handle the pressure differences through the system.
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:34 pm

Thanks again for the follow up replies and your thoughts.

Scott - that fan recommendation is very similar to one of the ones I had short-listed and I am going back to this idea rather than the self-build. Problem with self build is that there is a condition with extraction systems when there isn't enough power for the length of tubing and no air gets shifted. I don't want to build and then find that out the hard way. Also, the PSU I was going to use is noisy in the extreme so that was a bad idea which I realised after my earlier posting. One of these days, I'll find a use for that dual server PSU and try jump-starting my car with it!

My original plan for mounting the fan assembly was to use wall bolts and then decouple the fan from the wall with heavy springs - like bike saddle springs. However, I think my main concern is noise travelling down the tubing into the studio room.

Paul - you lost me a bit with this: "APART from the vent splitter silencers I used to prevent the holes in the wall from destroying the soundproofing". Vent splitter silencers? Errr, is that easy to explain please? Does this solve the noise-down-the-tube problem?

Thanks everyone.
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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:57 pm

GReetings Mark

Splitter silencers are basically a huge box full of RW3, the air travels through a slot between ( or at the side ) of the RW3. The bigger the box, the lower the freq of isolation.

They're for preserving the isolation of the studio itself rather than silencing the fan. but they will also do that. You need four splitter silencers in total. one each side of the wall for both inlet and outlet.

My splitter silencers are 1.5 x 1 x 0.5m - BIG!

Paul
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:08 pm

Hi Paul - thanks for the explanation. 1.5m x 1m x 0.5m is pretty damn big!! Four of them as well?! Cripes. Guessing but I think I could fit two in if one foot square and no more but I suspect my need for acoustic isolation is not as extreme as yours. Anyway, this gives me a good idea of what I should be doing but until I actually pull the ceiling down, I don't really know exactly how much space I have.

Cheers...

Mark
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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:38 pm

MarkEdmonds wrote:Hi Paul - thanks for the explanation. 1.5m x 1m x 0.5m is pretty damn big!! Four of them as well?! Cripes. Guessing but I think I could fit two in if one foot square and no more but I suspect my need for acoustic isolation is not as extreme as yours. Anyway, this gives me a good idea of what I should be doing but until I actually pull the ceiling down, I don't really know exactly how much space I have.

Cheers...

Mark


Is your studio on the ground floor or first floor?

You won't need silencers as big as mine - don't worry :)

Are you actually doing ay soundproofing? Or just acoustic treatment?
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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:40 pm

Oh and btw, splitter silencers need to be made the same thickness as the walls, otherwise it defeats the object. So they're also HEAVY!!!
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:39 am

Is your studio on the ground floor or first floor?


Ground. How does this change the silencers?

Are you actually doing ay soundproofing? Or just acoustic treatment?


I suppose in principle, I am only doing acoustic treatment but I want this to benefit sound proofing for all the usual reasons you want sound proofing.

The fan is going to go in the same room as the DAW. At the moment, the DAW is about 99.95% silent but the fan will probably be noisier. This is why I am concerned about keeping the fan noise out.
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:54 am

Paul Woodlock wrote:Oh and btw, splitter silencers need to be made the same thickness as the walls, otherwise it defeats the object. So they're also HEAVY!!!


Aha, now I think I am seeing this. Have you built these right into the wall? If so, that isn't what I was planning. Hope this isn't too boring...

I have a typical lath/plaster/joist or plaster board/joist ceiling in the studio room. The adjacent room is the "machine" room where the DAW sits and the fan will sit. The wall thickness is 2 bricks and the wall is a mixture of original brick and concrete fill-in.

The plan for the studio room is:

1. Rip down the ceiling exposing the joists.

2. Extend the joists down 20cm to make a false ceiling by building onto the joists.

3. Install the fan with the piping plumbed through the wall into the machine room.

4. Fill the 20cm lowered ceiling with RW3 except for the original joist depth which serves as an air gap.

Now on point 3, I was simply going to drill the necessary tubing diameter in the wall. However, after the discussion on silencers, I am now thinking about making a silencer box that doesn't fit in the wall but sits the studio side of the wall and uses an inter-joist gap. Just imagine a box built into the joists doing the same job as your huge silencer boxes. I would still need to drill the wall of course and would still take precautions about the noise level in the machine room but the silencer box would be going a long way to reducing sound transmission down the plumbing.

So that is plan revision 348 as it stands as of this morning!
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Postby Scott R. Foster » Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:18 pm

It may just be me, but I think this is getting a lot more complicated than it needs to.

If you can, I'd suggest you simply bolt the fan to something massive that won't vibrate easily... like a masonry wall... and use long, large diameter ess shaped runs of duct as I described... I bet it will work.

PS: that's a nice looking fan Paul... spun steel... shoot boy howdy wow!
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:25 pm

Scott, I agree, it is getting more complex but I don't want to cut a corner and have it come back and bite me.

The business with me taking down the ceiling - I am doing that anyway for the purpose of treatment and lighting. The extra benefit is it gives me space for the ventilation so there isn't that much extra work involved.

I will definitely be doing the large diameter S shaped runs as you suggest but bolting the fan direct to the wall makes me nervous. Bolting it to a non-studio wall is not really an option as I would be playing dangerously with placement as there are gas and water pipes all over the shot.

Mark
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Postby Paul Woodlock » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:14 pm

Scott R. Foster wrote:It may just be me, but I think this is getting a lot more complicated than it needs to.


it seems to be....


Mark, the splitter silencers are only really needed if you are properly soundproofing your room. Dont' confuse splitter silencers with fan duct silencers :)

What I would do is install your fan in the machine room ( i think you are already doing this ), build a fan duct silencer ( box full of rockwool - chicken wire tubedown centre for air flow - make the box as big as possible ) in the machine room too, but on the 'studio' side of the fan duct system. then poke duct through hole in wall into studio.

Before doing anything else, switch it on and 'hear' how loud it is. In fact do some music work for a couple of hours with it switched on.

If it's annoying, you'll probably have to split the duct into a few seperate ducts to spread out the airflow, and thus reduce the velocity of the air at each outlet vent in the studio. All this ducting should be encased in rockwool. not a problem as you are building a lowered celing.

btw - why are you building a lowered ceiling with extra rockwool and plasterboard underneath? It's not gonna do much for soundproofing, especialloy in the troublesome bass area.

it might be better to leave the ceiling as is, and use the 20cm space up there for early reflection absorption. ( or am I missing something )

Marks says:
So that is plan revision 348 as it stands as of this morning!


Only revision 348? You wait until you get to revision 1,200,445,999½ like me :eek:

:)

Paul





[b]PS: that's a nice looking fan Paul... spun steel... shoot boy howdy wow!


cheers :) - They look even nicer when you get them for FREE :) :) [ it was left over from a big install job I worked on a couple of years ago. I knew I would need it someday :) ]
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Postby MarkEdmonds » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:45 pm

Paul Woodlock wrote:btw - why are you building a lowered ceiling with extra rockwool and plasterboard underneath? It's not gonna do much for soundproofing, especialloy in the troublesome bass area.

it might be better to leave the ceiling as is, and use the 20cm space up there for early reflection absorption. ( or am I missing something )


Just briefly as I have to get ready for work...

By removing the ceiling it exposes the joists. This gives me a nice uniform building area for making sure the 100% wall/ceiling is corner trapping is firmly secured, enables me to wire in a lighting array, enables complete ceiling covering with 200mm RW3 and an air gap above it and also, provides space for the vent tubing. It makes sense (to me) even if a bit of work.

That's pretty much the gist of it. WIth the ceiling in place, I can' build into it as I don't know the structure, nor mains and heating runs.

I'll try to find a way of drawing the plans and sticking them up to show this.
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Postby Bob » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:28 pm

Regards
Bob Golds
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