More HVAC questions

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More HVAC questions

Postby archive » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:55 am

From: David Chertock <ap412@l...>
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 2:33 pm
Subject: More HVAC questions

Hi Folks,
This current thread parallels my own studio air conditioning questions.
Obviously, what I want is a silent and effective system for as little
money and effort as possible. HA! Any tips you have or pointers to
information will be greatly appreciated!

While most of the time I expect the heat generated from equipment and
people will be trivial compared to most studios, occasionally I want to
turn on a wall of amps on and have a room full of players without any
difficulty. From what I've learned so far, it seems that I will most
likely be locating some kind of package unit air conditioner outside on
the ground about 3 feet from the external wall.

Here is our first big question:

Could those of you familiar with building garage studios tell me if a 1,
1 1/2, or 2 ton unit would be most appropriate? FWIW, I live by the
beach in LA where the temperature is relatively mild.

Fixed building details:
the garage (i mean, RECORDING STUDIO), is 22 ft. by 20 ft.
the Main room is about 280 Sq. ft.
the Isolation booth is about 70 Sq. ft.
the sound lock/machine room is about 50 Sq. ft.

All rooms are about an 8 foot ceiling.

What size ducts can be used? We are planning to use flexible-vinyl
insulated ducts. We have planned a large 6'x10'x2' box ontop of a garden
shed near the air conditioner. Inside this, a duct would snake back and
forth a number of times. We also have planned a 2'x3'x6' box on the
garage roof that covers where the duct pierces through. From there, 3
ducts branch off with as much as another run of +25' each before
entering each room.

Here is our second big question:

Our guess for infiltration sizing was:
a 12" round for the main room
a 7" round for Iso-booth
a 7" round for the Entry room

We have been told that the return ducts have to be the same size. is
this true or can the system have smaller outgoing ducts and maintain a
bit of positive pressure? My thinking is that smaller return ducts
create less noise leakage when going through the ceiling.

We also want to add in a bit of fresh air into the system instead of
merely recirculating the same oxygen ad infinitum. If anyone has come up
with a magic ratio as to how much to add in? Any favorite ways to
accomplish this?

If anyone could recommend an air conditioner model (or even a brand),
that would also be of enourmous help. I need a both a very quiet unit,
and one that has very slow air flow. (And how exactly is the air
velocity of a particular unit determined?) I am terrifed of a noisy
unit bleeding into my studio through the wall (or even where the ducts
come through the ceiling), as well as scared of hearing the air whoosh
into the room.

Thank you so much!!!!

David
Venice, CA
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:38 am

From: sjoerd@n...
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:15 am
Subject: Re: More HVAC questions

--- In acoustics@y..., David Chertock <ap412@l...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> This current thread parallels my own studio air conditioning questions.
> Obviously, what I want is a silent and effective system for as little
> money and effort as possible. HA! Any tips you have or pointers to
> information will be greatly appreciated!
>
> While most of the time I expect the heat generated from equipment and
> people will be trivial compared to most studios, occasionally I want to
> turn on a wall of amps on and have a room full of players without any
> difficulty. From what I've learned so far, it seems that I will most
> likely be locating some kind of package unit air conditioner outside on
> the ground about 3 feet from the external wall.
>
> Here is our first big question:
>
> Could those of you familiar with building garage studios tell me if a 1,
> 1 1/2, or 2 ton unit would be most appropriate? FWIW, I live by the
> beach in LA where the temperature is relatively mild.
>
> Fixed building details:
> the garage (i mean, RECORDING STUDIO), is 22 ft. by 20 ft.
> the Main room is about 280 Sq. ft.
> the Isolation booth is about 70 Sq. ft.
> the sound lock/machine room is about 50 Sq. ft.
>
> All rooms are about an 8 foot ceiling.
>
> What size ducts can be used? We are planning to use flexible-vinyl
> insulated ducts. We have planned a large 6'x10'x2' box ontop of a garden
> shed near the air conditioner. Inside this, a duct would snake back and
> forth a number of times. We also have planned a 2'x3'x6' box on the
> garage roof that covers where the duct pierces through. From there, 3
> ducts branch off with as much as another run of +25' each before
> entering each room.
>
> Here is our second big question:
>
> Our guess for infiltration sizing was:
> a 12" round for the main room
> a 7" round for Iso-booth
> a 7" round for the Entry room
>
> We have been told that the return ducts have to be the same size. is
> this true or can the system have smaller outgoing ducts and maintain a
> bit of positive pressure? My thinking is that smaller return ducts
> create less noise leakage when going through the ceiling.
>
> We also want to add in a bit of fresh air into the system instead of
> merely recirculating the same oxygen ad infinitum. If anyone has come up
> with a magic ratio as to how much to add in? Any favorite ways to
> accomplish this?
>
> If anyone could recommend an air conditioner model (or even a brand),
> that would also be of enourmous help. I need a both a very quiet unit,
> and one that has very slow air flow. (And how exactly is the air
> velocity of a particular unit determined?) I am terrifed of a noisy
> unit bleeding into my studio through the wall (or even where the ducts
> come through the ceiling), as well as scared of hearing the air whoosh
> into the room.
>
> Thank you so much!!!!
>
>
> David
> Venice, CA

A number of things:
1) For a space your size a smaller 1 ton unit would be more than
sufficient.
2) The quietest units on the market as far as I know are those made by
American Standard. You can look up specs on their website :
www.amstd-comfort.com
3) If you use a product like JPL flex duct, you certainly do not need
to run an aditional 25' to get rid of noise. If you have a relatively
quiet unit, a run of 20' between the unit and an outlet should be
sufficient.
4) NEVER snake ducts back-and-forth, coil them instead. snaking them
makes the air change direction, which induces noise. You need to keep
the flow as smooth as possible.
5) With the sizes given, it would seem 10" for the main room and 5"
diameter for the other rooms would be sufficient.
6) It is true that returns should be AT LEAST the same size as the
outlets. Reason being easy of airflow. Big outlets and a small return
and you will induce airnoise at the return.
7) I believe new CA law for public buildings (not for private ones)
stipulate a minimum 10% intake of fresh air (where the hell would they
get that from in LA????). Just introduce a small diameter (5") flex
duct in your return system which draws from outside.
8) Airflow velocity is dependent on the fan speed. Note: NOT the fan
speed of the cooling unit! The vast majority of systems have just one
fan speed. Very easy to build a speed regulator in it, even easier to
put a 2 step speed regulator in it. Every good AC guy should know how to.

Please note, I'm not an air conditioning wizz!! Just have designed a
lot of rooms. So just take it as advise only.
There is a brilliant aircon company here in Santa Barbara, one of
their installers has done studios and is the wizz - makes everything
real quiet. I don't know if they go as far south as Venice, but if
you like I'll ask them or give you their number.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:39 am

From: Douglas_E._Haeussler@f...
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 6:51 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

> David from Venice, CA wrote a series of questions and someone from Santa
Barbara replied....

<<<<< Please note, I'm not an air conditioning wizz!! Just have designed a
lot of rooms. So just take it as advise only.
There is a brilliant aircon company here in Santa Barbara, one of
their installers has done studios and is the wizz - makes everything
real quiet. I don't know if they go as far south as Venice, but if
you like I'll ask them or give you their number. >>>>>

Hey, not sure what your name is because my browser no longer identifies
senders to this list, but I'd sure appreciate it if you'd share the name &
phone number of the Santa Barbara AC company with me. I'm from the SF area,
but I'm formerly from Santa Barbara and still travel there from time to
time. PLEASE PLEASE.... send the info to me off-list if possible!!! Send to
- basspegg@a...

Thanks,
Doug Haeussler
Rohnert Park, CA USA
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:40 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine. He asks her out to a movie; she
accepts; they have a pretty good time. A few nights later he asks her out
to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves.They continue to see each other
regularly, and after a while, neither one of them is seeing anybody else.

Then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine,
and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: "Do you realize that, as
of
tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?"

And then there is silence in the car. . . To Elaine, it seems like a very
loud silence. She thinks to herself: Jeez, I wonder if it bothers him that
I
said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he
thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he want, or
isn't sure of.

And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months.

And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of
relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd
have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we
are, moving steadily toward. I mean, where are we going? Are we just going
to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward
marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that
level of commitment? Do I really even know this person?

And Roger is thinking: ....So that means it was ... let's see...February
when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the
dealer's, which means.. lemme check the odometer. Whoa! I am way overdue
for
an oil change here.

And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm
reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship,
more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed-even before I sensed
it-that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why
he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of
being rejected.

And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission
again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right.
And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What
cold
weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a = garbage
truck, and I paid those incompetent thieves $600.

And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry,
too. I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I
feel. I'm just not sure.

And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty.
Scumbags!

And Elaine is thinking: Maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight
to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a
perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I truly do
care
about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain
because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy.

And Roger is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them a
warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their...

"Roger," Elaine says aloud.

"What?" says Roger, startled.

"Please don't torture yourself like this," she says, her eyes beginning to
brim with tears. "Maybe I should never have... Oh God, I feel so..." (She
breaks down, sobbing.)

"What?" says Roger.

"I'm such a fool," Elaine sobs. "I mean, I know there's no knight. I really
know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse."

"There's no horse?" says Roger.

"You think I'm a fool, don't you?" Elaine says.

"No!" says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer.

"It's just that ... it's that I ...I need some time," Elaine says.
(There is a 15-second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries
to come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one that he
thinks
might work.)

"Yes," he says.

(Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.) "Oh, Roger, do you really feel
that way?" she says.

"What way?" says Roger.

"That way about time," says Elaine.

"Oh," says Roger. "Yes."(Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his
eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next,
especially if it involves a horse.

At last she speaks.) "Thank you, Roger," she says.

"Thank you," says Roger.

Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured
soul, and weeps until dawn. Roger gets back to his place, he opens a bag
of
Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a
rerun
of a tennis match between two Czechoslovakians he never heard of. A tiny
voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was
going on back there in the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he
would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't
think about it.

The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them,
and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours.
In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and
everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every
word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every
possible ramification. They will continue to discuss this subject, off and
on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but
never getting bored with it, either.

Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual
friend of his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown, and
say: "Norm, did Elaine ever own a horse?"

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the difference between men and women!

Stephen Foster
MillKids/Howler Studios/MFoV Info
http://www.idnmusic.com/howler
WhiteHorse Records
IDNMusic.com
http://www.idnmusic.com
all music. all indie.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:44 am

From: BASSMANCP@A...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 12:30 am
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

In a message dated 3/1/01 7:18:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
oncourse@i... writes:

<< And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the difference between men and women!

Stephen Foster
>>

Hi Stephen,

That was beautiful !! Did you write it?

Chris Preston
Cedar Ranch Studio
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:52 am

From: Douglas_E._Haeussler@f...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 12:46 am
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

<< And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the difference between men and women!

My God, Stephen! That was great. I just forwarded it to half a dozen of my
friends.

Doug Haeussler
Rohnert Park, CA USA
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:52 am

From: "Danny Stinnett" <danny@p...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:22 am
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

>Aint that the truth!! I enjoyed that Stephen. Danny
> And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the difference between men and women!
>
>
> Stephen Foster
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:53 am

From: David Chertock <ap412@l...>
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: More HVAC questions

Sjoerd,
WOW! Thank you for your very informative and helpful reply!!! I have
been very confused about many of these issues, and some of the
information you have given me almost seems too good to be true. It looks
like I was prepared to work a little harder than necessary. I would very
much like to have the phone number of the air conditioning wizz in Santa
Barbara.

I found out a few things today. American Standard's HVAC division really
doesn't exist. I searched high and low for phone numbers, and eventually
after pulling some of my hair out, I found out that American Standard
owns Trane. Trane makes air conditioners, and then puts labels on some
of them that say American Standard. From what I have been able to tell,
American Standard doesn't sell directly to consumers, but Trane does.
The Trane and the American Standard air conditioners have the exact same
model numbers.

My studio walls are not going to be the most massive ever built. I am
hoping to build in two stages. 1st, I'm going to add insulation,
drywall, a resilient channel, and then drywall to the existing
structure. Later, I'll frame up another wall to make a room within a
room. With the roof, I am stuck with only 3 layers of drywall total (+ a
resilient channel). I am trying to find out how many dBs the
Trane/American Standard 1 1/2 ton unit puts out (they don't make a 1 ton
unit). I can only locate the unit 3 feet outside the studio, and I'm
pretty nervous about the air conditioner emitting a low rumble that
comes right through my walls. They will probably tell me, "Oh it only
puts out 40 dB, but 95% of that is under 200 Hertz".

Thanks again, and wish me luck!!!!

David
Venice, CA
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:54 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:10 am
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

In a message dated 2/28/01 10:16:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sjoerd@n... writes:

> There is a brilliant aircon company here in Santa Barbara, one of
> their installers has done studios and is the wizz - makes everything
> real quiet. I don't know if they go as far south as Venice, but if
> you like I'll ask them or give you their number.
>

Yep ... I agree, get a havoc guy to figure out all that duct sizing stuff ...
its all a snap for a guy who knows what he's doing ... doing it yourself
you'd probably waste enough materials to pay a guy to do it right.... my
$0.02 worth anyway.

Scott R. Foster
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:56 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

Nope, but had to share. *G*
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:57 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

It came from the Mighty Field Of Vision elist. Great list if you're a
musician and enjoy rare odd music and the fellowship of famous musicians.
Lotsa interesting humor, to say the least.

sf
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:58 am

From: sjoerd@n...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: More HVAC questions

> > And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the difference between men and
women!
> >
> >
> > Stephen Foster

Stephen!!! What have you done to me?? Stories like this, which might
lead to a better understanding............
DANGEROUS!! Please please, can't we just carry on with our blissful
lack of understanding of woman?

ehh... now I better put a security block on this site, if my
girlfriend read this she'll kill me (nothing like the wrath of an
African woman).
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:58 am

From: sjoerd@n...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: More HVAC questions

David. There is another thing you might want to consider, which is in
my opinion the best option regarding sound control (but I don't know
how it works out financially), a split unit.
We just installed an American Standard Allegiance 10 4 ton unit of
48.000 BTUH, with the refrid. unit outside and the fan inside. The
outside unit is very low noise, and definately no low frequency
problems (those normally come from the air fan system, and especially
from heating systems which often blow air as well as the noise of the
gas flames out).
For our second control room (a seperate building connected to the main
building / machine room via fiber optics) we will use a similar
system, but with the smallest (1,5 ton, 18.000 BTUH) Allegiance system.

My option (but I don't know your available space) would be to place
the refrid. unit outside, as normal, but perhaps put the fan assembly
in your shed? In that case you have as much control as you can
possibly get.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:59 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: More HVAC questions

What? A TIGER in AFRICA!?!?!?
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