A re-think on acoustics - long posting

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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:29 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:25 pm
Subject: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

I helped build a control room with irregular length wooden 6X6 posts
screwed onto the front wall. We cut the posts into pieces anywhere
from 2" to 6" and screwed them butt-in onto the wall. Sounded great.

sf
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:31 am

From: "Danny Stinnett" <danny@p...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

Stephen, The stone I was thinking of, is also very irregular...maybe as much
as 6" peaks down to the mortar material. Gotta say, it really looked cool!
Just wondered if it would work in a studio and be cost effective. Thanks all
Danny
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:31 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/7/01 4:22:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sjoerd@n... writes:

> I don't blaim Chris, I don't I don't honestly I don't!!! :>))))
> Grout works wonderfull. Unfortunately in the '70's people seemed to
> love filling the bloody things with sand.
>

This was actually reccomened to me ... fortuneately I mentioned the idea to
a couple of old salts who rolled their eyes and asked me if I might ever
drill a hole in the wall .. after thinking about it I got the point.

The grout thing was the mason's idea ... local codes requires that you fill
the top of a cc block wall with steel and concrete to "tie" it together
structurally. Every 4' and on each side of all doors and windows, a column
of cells is left open and steel is run from the slab to the top and concrete
is poured into these cells to provide a vertical reinforced steel column to
add strength. Usually "pans" (thin stamped steel plates) are inserted into
the top of the wall to limit the vertically filling to just a few cells ...
we just left these out ... I figure it cost me less that $200 including pump
time to just go ahead and pump the whole wall full (1,000 sf building).

I then used a cc stain on the inside, a compromise, iI used a lightweight
block which has big pores .. after use a stain, it was not too holy
(absorbtive) but not as reflective as paint. It aint pretty but by spreading
around three 4'x8' polycylindricals, about dozen of 2'x4' burlap covered
703 panels, hanging my guitars on the walls, an old pump organ and an old
piano along two other walls, a big leather couch and 18' x 3' fiberglass
stuffed ceiling cloud I got the room time down to about .6 second RT60
without any gnarly room modes. Its a bit too verby for somethings but I made
a pair of 4'x4' gobos and these can tame things quite a bit when I roll them
tight to the sound source. Drums explode in this room ... very gratifying.

Its a cheap practical room ... not a real pretty place, but not uncomfortable
.. or oppressive ... someday I hope to come back with t&g paneling and a wood
floor (mostly for the looks) ... but this works for now. If I could change
anything it would be ceiling height ... 10' walls with a vault to almost 13',
not bad but I'm jealous of the soaring ceiling you have in that barn. Oy Weh!

Scott R. Foster
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:32 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/7/01 4:26:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sjoerd@n... writes:

> To be honest Danny, I've never used flagstone. I did use slate once
> on a wall, and that was a bit of a disaster. It might be a bit to
> flat and cause reflections - like the slate wall I build for someone
> and had to take down again (at my own expense grrrrrrrrr)
> Scott?
>
>
>

Yikes! that sounds expensive.

I'd get that book by Newell that Chris suggests ... try and understand what
is happening that makes stone walls lovely ... just guessing that maybe the
benefit of this stone thing has to do with deep irregular grooves (the motar
joints) around irregular shapes I'd look for a way to do that cheap and easy
way to make something that looks good... The answer may be: make it out of
stone. A stone building would be expensive, but putting a stone cladding on
one of the walls in your tracking room (say behind the drum kit?) shouldn't
cost too much (kind of like a big stone fireplace without the hole in the
middle where the fire goes). Not exactly cheap, but not an enormous expense.

The project described is not structural .. and not for acoustic barrier
purposes ... so strength beyond mere stability isn't a factor, and overall
STC is immaterial (though I'd think it'd get a big boost regardless). I'd
guess Danny's right ... he probably could just tack up metal lathe, mud it
up, and stack the stone. I'd bet that was what was done (maybe overdone) at
that rock room studio.

Trick would to get the right stone with the right rake to the mortar joint
(here is where I'd want to look at the Newell book that Chris referred to and
gets some real world advice .. maybe from a guy who did it right:

"We knew it was right .. Hell, we did three times" ;-]

What did yall put in after the slate came down?

What were the stones in that castle's walls like? Were the joints deeply
raked?

I don't see why he couldn't mimic something like that fairly economicaly (a
few hundred bucks worth of stone and a days work for a small masonry crew -
say a $1,000 altogether???). There is a local firm that sells decorative
rocks for water gardens by the pallet ... some nice big round chunks of river
rock with deep joints might work and look great. ... I might even try it if
I ever get around to upgrading the finishes in my rooms.

Are you going to do a stone wall at your place?

Scott R. Foster
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:36 am

From: "Danny Stinnett" <danny@p...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 7:30 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

Scott, Yeah that is what I had in mind. Puttin the stone on one wall...sort
of natural diffusion. That stone drum room did look like it went overboard.
Danny
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:36 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:34 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/7/01 11:33:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
oncourse@i... writes:

> I helped build a control room with irregular length wooden 6X6 posts
> screwed onto the front wall. We cut the posts into pieces anywhere
> from 2" to 6" and screwed them butt-in onto the wall. Sounded great.
>
> sf

Like a giant skyline diffuser ... very cool ... did yall calculate a pseduo
random sequence for the lengths or just let nature take its course?

the other sf
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:37 am

From: sjoerd@n...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:15 pm
Subject: Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

>
> What did yall put in after the slate came down?

Ehhhhhhhh let me think. The place had 24" thick walls, so barriers
were not needed. Replaced the slate wall with a stone wall 5' high.
On top of that a 2 x 4 frame with rockwool insulation, covered with
stapled retention cloth, 1 x 6 spruce planks with 4" spacing behind
them, a 1/8" thick alunimum strip top and bottem, then another row of
1 x 6 to cover the gaps (which sounded a damn side better).
>
> What were the stones in that castle's walls like? Were the joints
deeply
> raked?

Lindesfarne castle, like many other medieval places in the North of
England, is a "dry stone" building. In other words, no mortar, just
huge stones stacked and slotted together. The main hall is small, I
think just about 18 x 15, but with a ceiling at least 20 plus feet
high. I think I still have an old cassette with some drum sounds we
recorded there. If I find it I'll send you a sample. Shame I havn't
got the original sounds, would have made great sampling stuff.
>
> I don't see why he couldn't mimic something like that fairly
economicaly (a
> few hundred bucks worth of stone and a days work for a small masonry
crew -
> say a $1,000 altogether???). There is a local firm that sells
decorative
> rocks for water gardens by the pallet ... some nice big round chunks
of river
> rock with deep joints might work and look great. ... I might even
try it if
> I ever get around to upgrading the finishes in my rooms.
>
> Are you going to do a stone wall at your place?
>
> Scott R. Foster

The bottem of the barn has (filled) concrete block on the inside,
stone on the outside. Very thick wall, and a saving grace, as it is so
thick it eliminates any low frequency resonance, which could / would
be a problem in a timber-frame building.
The cost of stone depends on where you are, the suitablity of local
stone also depends on where you are. We have got a lot of stone on
the property, but unfortunately the local stone is very round - like
giant pebbles. Not suitable for sound :>( Ideally you want stone with
a rough'ish angled face. The only way we could get that is to break
stone (which they do a lot over here to build walls etc.) To much
work!! I wanna be an engineer!!! I'm fedup with building!!!
Just spend 2 1/2 days sanding the control room surfaces .... did I say
I liked wood???
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:46 am

From: "Dave Martin" <dave.martin@n...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 7:52 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

See? That's why it's all so much fun. Everyone has a different approach to
this stuff. (and, of course, everyone's approach changes all the time...). A
bunch of the studios here still use drum booths and prefer that sound, while
others want to have a large room for the drums. I figure I'll make it work
somehow, no matter where the drums sit... By the same token (and to bring
this back to acoustics), some folks swear that you should have no parallel
walls, while others figure that you can work around them. Since you can't
avoid room nodes with non-parallel walls (you simply make them harder to
determine), the biggest reason not to have them is flutter echo, which is
easily controlled. Yet a whole bunch of folks go to the extra expense of
making things out of square. Who's right? I dunno...

Dave Martin
DMA, Inc.
Nashville, TN
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:49 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/8/01 2:56:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dave.martin@n... writes:

> Who's right? I dunno...
>
> Dave Martin
> DMA, Inc.
> Nashville, TN

Its like Ranjan said:

"There is no limit."

or Mr. Spock:

"Captain, there are always alternatives"

Or as I call it: The abyss of freedom.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:50 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:35 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

Just put them in as irregular as possible. I'm thinkin about building a
gobo with one side done something like that. It was live, but really
diffused well, and we didn't have to screw with the back wall much at all.

another sf

>In a message dated 3/7/01 11:33:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>oncourse@i... writes:
>
>
>> I helped build a control room with irregular length wooden 6X6 posts
>> screwed onto the front wall. We cut the posts into pieces anywhere
>> from 2" to 6" and screwed them butt-in onto the wall. Sounded great.
>>
>> sf
>
>Like a giant skyline diffuser ... very cool ... did yall calculate a pseduo
>random sequence for the lengths or just let nature take its course?
>
>the other sf
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>For more info, unsubscribe, large file uploads, ect: http://www.studiotips.com
>Send small drawing files to dan@s...
>To Unsubscribe: Send email to
>acoustics-unsubscribe@e????ups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Stephen Foster
MillKids/Howler Studios/MFoV Info
http://www.idnmusic.com/howler
WhiteHorse Records
IDNMusic.com
http://www.idnmusic.com
all music. all indie.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:50 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:35 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

If the rear wall works with it correctly it probably would be fine. I've
just lately seen a brick wall in a public building where they alternated
the bricks. One would be sideways, the next laid with the butt sticking
out, and it seemed like it would do the same job of breaking the sound up.
I'd like to try it some time.

Geez.. don't know if I can depict this...

____ ____
____!!!!____!!!!

sorta like that, where the !!!! is the narrow end of the brick, and it
sticks out about 2-3". I guess you could do it with the bricks flat or
vertical.

sf

>Stephen, The stone I was thinking of, is also very irregular...maybe as much
>as 6" peaks down to the mortar material. Gotta say, it really looked cool!
>Just wondered if it would work in a studio and be cost effective. Thanks all
>Danny
>
>> I helped build a control room with irregular length wooden 6X6 posts
>> screwed onto the front wall. We cut the posts into pieces anywhere
>> from 2" to 6" and screwed them butt-in onto the wall. Sounded great.
>>
>> sf
>>
>>
>> >--- In acoustics@y..., "Danny Stinnett" <danny@p...> wrote:
>> >> Hi, Question folks... I have seen some walls where you basically have
>> >> flagstone applied, in a mortar type base. Will this give the acoustic
>> >> benefits?? I would still have a double wall behind it for the actual
>> >> soundproofing. Danny
>> >
>> >To be honest Danny, I've never used flagstone. I did use slate once
>> >on a wall, and that was a bit of a disaster. It might be a bit to
>> >flat and cause reflections - like the slate wall I build for someone
>> >and had to take down again (at my own expense grrrrrrrrr)
>> >Scott?
>> >
>
>
>For more info, unsubscribe, large file uploads, ect: http://www.studiotips.com
>Send small drawing files to dan@s...
>To Unsubscribe: Send email to
>acoustics-unsubscribe@e????ups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Stephen Foster
MillKids/Howler Studios/MFoV Info
http://www.idnmusic.com/howler
WhiteHorse Records
IDNMusic.com
http://www.idnmusic.com
all music. all indie.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:51 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:35 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

Wasn't one of the Zep albums done in a castle like that?

>>
>> What did yall put in after the slate came down?
>
>Ehhhhhhhh let me think. The place had 24" thick walls, so barriers
>were not needed. Replaced the slate wall with a stone wall 5' high.
>On top of that a 2 x 4 frame with rockwool insulation, covered with
>stapled retention cloth, 1 x 6 spruce planks with 4" spacing behind
>them, a 1/8" thick alunimum strip top and bottem, then another row of
>1 x 6 to cover the gaps (which sounded a damn side better).
>>
>> What were the stones in that castle's walls like? Were the joints
>deeply
>> raked?
>
>Lindesfarne castle, like many other medieval places in the North of
>England, is a "dry stone" building. In other words, no mortar, just
>huge stones stacked and slotted together. The main hall is small, I
>think just about 18 x 15, but with a ceiling at least 20 plus feet
>high. I think I still have an old cassette with some drum sounds we
>recorded there. If I find it I'll send you a sample. Shame I havn't
>got the original sounds, would have made great sampling stuff.
>>
>> I don't see why he couldn't mimic something like that fairly
>economicaly (a
>> few hundred bucks worth of stone and a days work for a small masonry
>crew -
>> say a $1,000 altogether???). There is a local firm that sells
>decorative
>> rocks for water gardens by the pallet ... some nice big round chunks
>of river
>> rock with deep joints might work and look great. ... I might even
>try it if
>> I ever get around to upgrading the finishes in my rooms.
>>
>> Are you going to do a stone wall at your place?
>>
>> Scott R. Foster
>
>The bottem of the barn has (filled) concrete block on the inside,
>stone on the outside. Very thick wall, and a saving grace, as it is so
>thick it eliminates any low frequency resonance, which could / would
>be a problem in a timber-frame building.
>The cost of stone depends on where you are, the suitablity of local
>stone also depends on where you are. We have got a lot of stone on
>the property, but unfortunately the local stone is very round - like
>giant pebbles. Not suitable for sound :>( Ideally you want stone with
>a rough'ish angled face. The only way we could get that is to break
>stone (which they do a lot over here to build walls etc.) To much
>work!! I wanna be an engineer!!! I'm fedup with building!!!
>Just spend 2 1/2 days sanding the control room surfaces .... did I say
>I liked wood???
>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>For more info, unsubscribe, large file uploads, ect: http://www.studiotips.com
>Send small drawing files to dan@s...
>To Unsubscribe: Send email to
>acoustics-unsubscribe@e????ups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Stephen Foster
MillKids/Howler Studios/MFoV Info
http://www.idnmusic.com/howler
WhiteHorse Records
IDNMusic.com
http://www.idnmusic.com
all music. all indie.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:51 am

From: BASSMANCP@A...
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/9/01 9:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
oncourse@i... writes:

<< Wasn't one of the Zep albums done in a castle like that?

>>

Yes, Bonham set up his drums up outside of the room the rest of the
band was recording in. When he was warming up in the hallway that was
open to the rest of a mostly stone castle, the band opened the door
to the recording room and the drums "leaked" in. Upon playback
of the leaked drums they said "that's it" and the rest, as they say,
is history.

CP
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:53 am

From: Stephen Foster <oncourse@i...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

I swear I hate ISO booths for rock music

>In a message dated 3/9/01 9:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>oncourse@i... writes:
>
><< Wasn't one of the Zep albums done in a castle like that?
>
> >>
>
> Yes, Bonham set up his drums up outside of the room the rest of the
>band was recording in. When he was warming up in the hallway that was
>open to the rest of a mostly stone castle, the band opened the door
>to the recording room and the drums "leaked" in. Upon playback
>of the leaked drums they said "that's it" and the rest, as they say,
>is history.
>
> CP
>
>For more info, unsubscribe, large file uploads, ect: http://www.studiotips.com
>Send small drawing files to dan@s...
>To Unsubscribe: Send email to
>acoustics-unsubscribe@e????ups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Stephen Foster
MillKids/Howler Studios/MFoV Info
http://www.idnmusic.com/howler
WhiteHorse Records
IDNMusic.com
http://www.idnmusic.com
all music. all indie.
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:54 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:40 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/9/01 9:16:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
oncourse@i... writes:

> ____ ____
> ____!!!!____!!!!
>
> sorta like that, where the !!!! is the narrow end of the brick, and it
> sticks out about 2-3". I guess you could do it with the bricks flat or
> vertical.
>
> sf

A flemish bond wall has a double row of bricks. Every other brick you are
looking at a butt instead of a side ... very old school, very storng .. I
built some garden walls this way. Quoin corners are often made of the same
brick as the wall, they are just laid so as to stick out a bit and form a
rectangle that wraps around the corner. This sort of brick laying technique
would be easy to adapt for making an interior surface highly irregular ... I
once drew up a plan to vary the overhang in a primitive root sequence but the
mason just rolled his eyes.

Scott R. Foster
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:55 am

From: BASSMANCP@A...
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:56 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/9/01 10:41:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, SRF7@a...
writes:

<< > ____ ____
> ____!!!!____!!!!
>
> sorta like that, where the !!!! is the narrow end of the brick, and it
> sticks out about 2-3". I guess you could do it with the bricks flat or
> vertical.
>
> sf

A flemish bond wall has a double row of bricks. Every other brick you are
looking at a butt instead of a side ... very old school, very storng .. I
built some garden walls this way. Quoin corners are often made of the same
brick as the wall, they are just laid so as to stick out a bit and form a
rectangle that wraps around the corner. This sort of brick laying technique
would be easy to adapt for making an interior surface highly irregular ... I
once drew up a plan to vary the overhang in a primitive root sequence but
the
mason just rolled his eyes.

Scott R. Foster >>

You could take this one step further by chipping irregular
ends on the protruding bricks. Adding extra random diffusion.

CP
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Postby archive » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:55 am

From: SRF7@a...
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 6:15 pm
Subject: Re: [acoustics] Re: A re-think on acoustics - long posting

In a message dated 3/9/01 10:58:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
BASSMANCP@A... writes:

> You could take this one step further by chipping irregular
> ends on the protruding bricks. Adding extra random diffusion.
>
> CP
>

yep or buy a brick / block that comes with an irregular surface.
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