classical editing/mastering studio build

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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:31 pm

I also almost finished work on the window.
I made the outside window airtight. Then I added 21mm of water resistant MDF, with insulation behind, to act as a soundbarrier for the leak between the window and the wall. I also made sure this MDF layer was again airtight. I don't want moisture coming in from the outisde !

I made the structure in the inner wall that will hold the single 15mm acoustic glass (8 and 6 mm with 2 layers of acoustic film inbetween). Of course this has been completely sealed as well. The inner structure is NOT touching the outside, but I put some fiberglass in the gaps. At first the fiberglass was compressed too much, and you could actually hear isolation degrade when knocking the outside wall and listening to the inside.

The inside will be finished by some absorbtion with a nice fabric over it. I will also put about 3 Kg of silica gel in it, to absorb any moisture, or all moisture :mrgreen:
Mental note : must not forget to spray against spiders ! I would hate to open the window to remove cobwebs ...

The window is angled, not to have less isolation (the distance between the two glass panes is more than enough for my need), but to remove an unwanted reflection from the front speakers to the sofa listening position.

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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:35 pm

This is one serious silencer !

silencer.jpg
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Actually I will put one additional silencer inside the room, hidden behind acoustic treatment. Why ? Because this way I already have less leakage into the air conduits above the ceiling, which makes this a non-issue.

Also, this way I have three silencers between the ventilation unit and my studio air supply and extraction, so I will never hear any fan noise :mrgreen: µ
For the moment, without the last silencer in the room, I can hear some very slight noise when the ventilation is on max and when listening really close to the air supply.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:41 pm

The door is also more or less finished. The framing has been done and completely sealed, the door is a RF60, so about 55 Kg (2m10 by 93cm).
The framing is not continuous, inside and outside of the inner wall, as otherwise it would be weaker than the finished door, which will receive at least one more 21mm MDF layer with greenglue. There is already decent decoupling between the in/outiside framing, and the outside framing is again not touching the outer structure. There is a mini corridor (about 1m length) towards a second RF60 door. The inside of this corridor will be treated with absorbtion.

The door seals are from Lorient. I put two rows of seals, one around the door (with a drop seal on the bottom, in the same plane !), the second one a magnetic seal that holds the door shut. This is the aluminium profile in the pic.

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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:42 pm

The floor (polished concrete) has been cleaned yesterday and waxed today. End of this week the walls get painted !
No pix yet.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:45 pm

The room is completely clean and empty now, I must have about 5 seconds of reverberation in here !
But it already sounds quite diffuse :mrgreen:

My wife was playing piano in the next room, and while the second door is not finished and my 15 mm window has not arrived yet, I can just faintly hear the piano. It already sounds so far (and the reverb does not help). The noise clearly comes from the flanking through the outer window, and through the door.
I have a faint feeling I will manage above 75 dB of isolation. Measurements in a few weeks !
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Scott R. Foster » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:13 am

You rock...
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:21 am

Slowly...
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Scott R. Foster » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:58 pm

Well OK... but you guys are doing some really nice work. I am very impressed with the care you have put into every phase.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Ido » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:51 am

Y, looks 100% excellence..
almost smells Desartian :D ,
are u close to the galaxy studios? did u see them?
curious (and appreciative) how you go about deciding what ur doing,
but who cares, I'm just an old goat
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:20 am

Well, I have worked a few times at Galaxy, three classical music recordings, but with my own gear. I was indeed impressed by the level of isolation they have there, you can be recording pppp pizzicati on a solo viola, while they are mixing 130dB heavy metal in the nest control room - and hear nothing 8O

But the control rooms are too dry for my taste, while they are sounding very good and must be the most comfortable and accurate room I have ever been in on a location recording :mrgreen:
So, that was a first design decision, not going for a totally controlled environment, but something that gets closer to an ideal end-user listening room.
I did meet Eric Desart once, to talk about my project, but the timing was completely wrong, because I had to finish the private part of the house first. And of course, we did not completely agree. I am quite a stubborn man :bang

That brings me to the first decision, the two leafs for the walls. The outer leaf was decided with the rest of the house, cellular concrete blocks (Ytong, 100 Kg/m2, 24cm thick), because of the thermal insulation and reasonably good acoustic properties. Eric was concerned by this and advised me using something heavier around the studio, but the walls were already being built at the time. He was afraid the coincidence dip if the outer and inner leafs would be quite bad, but this seems to have worked out very fine. That was the main reason I decided to go for something much heavier for the inside, ie Silka blocks (270 Kg/m2, 15 cm thick). At the same time I found a Canadian study online (sound transmission loss measurements through 190mm and 140mm blocks with added drywall and through cavity block walls), with a measured STC of 79 for a 190/90 wall with 155mm cavity and 65mm glass fibre. the interesting part is where they measure a 90/90 mm wall with 115mm cavity and 65 mm of fibre glass, loosing only 2 dB of STC ! These measurements are of course with one wall on a floating assembly, so no flanking noise. The same wall on one slab gave 15 dB worse STC !
But the most clear thing is the complete absence of coincidence dip, and around 42 dB of isolation at 63 Hz.

So I based my walls (with 100-120 mm cavity) on this study, just a gut feeling, because I am using other materials, but very probably better. To make sure, I asked for test reports on single leaf walls, both for Ytong and Silka.

And the main goal after that was making as little errors and leaks as possible, finding a ceiling that would be up to scratch, and making a decent room and door. Don't forget, all of this is on a 16 cm concrete slab, on sylomer strips, calculation done by Getzner themselves.

I hope that answers your question :wink:
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:25 am

The bad news is, there is a building holiday in Belgium, right now. And all suppliers are closed for another week. So no glass wool to make superchunks :bang
Luckily, there is some editing and mastering to do, to keep me busy.

The first measurements were deceptive and encouraging: above 60 Hz everything looks controllable (even with a five second RT60 at first, and 1.5s for the moment, with some furniture and some emergency trapping). But between 35 and 45 Hz I have a really big hole. Weird, because in Bobgolds calculater, I get modes at 31, 40 and 51 Hz. But nothing inbetween. The graph (no smoothing) shows with sub (blue, sub closer to the front wall than speakers) and LR speakers plus sub at the same distance.

bass response 01.jpg
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Ido » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:31 pm

Yannick wrote:Well, I have worked a few times at Galaxy, three classical music recordings, but with my own gear. I was indeed impressed by the level of isolation they have there, you can be recording pizzicati on a solo viola, while they are mixing 130dB heavy metal in the nest control room - and hear nothing 8O

But the control rooms are too dry for my taste, while they are sounding very good and must be the most comfortable and accurate room I have ever been in on a location recording :mrgreen:
So, that was a first design decision, not going for a totally controlled environment, but something that gets closer to an ideal end-user listening room.


how did u find the galaxy recording-live rooms? did u play piano there?
we miss Eric Desart the master acoustician and master human being. I envy u that u met him.


.... we did not completely agree. I am quite a stubborn man :bang

trust me, all of us are very very stubborn. dutchmen are especially stubborn.

That brings me to the first decision, the two leafs for the walls. The outer leaf was decided with the rest of the house, cellular concrete blocks (Ytong, 100 Kg/m2, 24cm thick), because of the thermal insulation and reasonably good acoustic properties. Eric was concerned by this and advised me using something heavier around the studio, but the walls were already being built at the time. He was afraid the coincidence dip if the outer and inner leafs would be quite bad, but this seems to have worked out very fine....
...But the most clear thing is the complete absence of coincidence dip, and around 42 dB of isolation at 63 Hz.


Ytong sucks. I'm happy for u, but how do you know u don't have TL weakness?
maybe it just doesnt show it's face cause Belge noise is nice and friendly...

advice from a goat on inner room acoustics: try to think of not only alive and reflective in a big way (which maybe alive yet too harsh), but also in small-warm patterns. get my goat?
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:58 am

Ido wrote:how did u find the galaxy recording-live rooms? did u play piano there?


I was the balance engineer, and I was not blown away by the big live room. Too much daylight (sun in the musicians eyes ...), very diffuse but reverberation field was a bit too loud (almost impossible to work with just a main mic), and in all three recordings I had to get rid of a lot of energy around 1KHz. IMveryHO the room is in its standard setting not neutral enough and a bit too loud.
I am being very critical here, it is a good room, it's just I know several halls in Belgium where I get instantly a better/easier result.

Ido wrote:Ytong sucks. I'm happy for u, but how do you know u don't have TL weakness?
maybe it just doesnt show it's face cause Belge noise is nice and friendly...


I don't agree. thin Ytong is a nightmare. But from 24cm and above the walls get non-resonant, and isolate very well acoustically, if you take care of gaps etc (the vertical sides are not glued, this is optional)
Look at the graphs at page 7 (http://www.curbain.be/nl/renovation/pro ... MAT_NL.pdf), and see the difference between the two thinner walls and the 20cm wall. The thicker one does not have dips in the LF anymore.
I did ask for the measurements of my Ytong leaf and Silka leaf before I started the build.

Ido wrote:advice from a goat on inner room acoustics: try to think of not only alive and reflective in a big way (which maybe alive yet too harsh), but also in small-warm patterns. get my goat?

For the moment it is harsh, but would you think with RT between 1.5 and 2.2 seconds ?
The neighbours have three sheep,I could try those :mrgreen:
Last edited by Yannick on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Ido » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:43 am

Yannick wrote:
Ido wrote:how did u find the galaxy recording-live rooms? did u play piano there?


I was the balance engineer, and I was not blown away by the big live room. Too much daylight (sun in the musicians eyes ...), very diffuse but reverberation field was a bit too loud (almost impossible to work with just a main mic), and in all three recordings I had to get rid of a lot of energy around 1KHz. IMveryHO the room is in its standard setting not neutral enough and a bit too loud.
I am being very critical here, it is a good room, it's just I know several halls in Belgium where I get instantly a better/easier result.


that seems very easily fixed. maybe also more people-furnuture-sheep woulda fixed too. maybe the master had in mind the room as a basis.

Yannick wrote:
Ido wrote:Ytong sucks. I'm happy for u, but how do you know u don't have TL weakness?
maybe it just doesnt show it's face cause Belge noise is nice and friendly...


I don't agree. thin Ytong is a nightmare. But from 24cm and above the walls get non-resonant, and isolate very well acoustically, if you take care of gaps etc (the vertical sides are not glued, this is optional)
Look at the graphs at page 7, and see the difference between the two thinner walls and the 20cm wall.


can u direct me to page 7? i'd like to see. I'm not thinking resonance (not even sure what you mean), just the low density.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:17 am

I forget the link http://www.curbain.be/nl/renovation/pro ... MAT_NL.pdf
I fixed it in my previous post as well.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:36 am

This was exactly part of my discussion with Eric: I know that a sheetrock or plasterboard wall with studs performs better than a Ytong wall, above a certain frequency. But look at what happens beneath 125 Hz, even compared to a GG wall.
http://www.greengluecompany.com/sites/d ... rywall.pdf

My thought while designing the space was, better to get easy and free isolation at low frequencies. I did not mind about Ytong being 10 dB worse above 1 K, because in a double leaf construction with a floating leaf, this is a non issue anyway.

By resonance I mean that a free standing Ytong or Silka or any brick wall becomes like a gigantic drum skin with a low frequency, higher in the case of Ytong, which was part of Eric's concern i guess, as this can be in a nasty region. But when it is plastered it becomes stiffer, or when the blocks are thicker, or when you put 30-40 ton on top of it. On that p7 you can clearly see the resonant dip at 160 Hz for the thin Ytong leaf, plastered on both sides. As you can see, this dip is almost not there for the thickest leaf (my walls are even thicker).

Similar, in my studio build I did not want to use the 20cm silka blocks, because they are very heavy, and I preferred making the air gap 5 cm wider :mrgreen: But the 15 cm blocks started becoming very resonant (i did not measure, but my guess would be around 70-80 Hz) when the long wall with the door gap (!) was standing 3m high. The other walls were fine, because they had not such a big cutout. Luckily, after plastering and putting the ceiling (with two layers of greenglue which seems to suck the life out of the walls as well), the wall is now almost dead when you knock it hard.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:34 pm

this is the new situation with four megasuperchunks.
The big 40-55 Hz gap is disappearing (maybe actually quite gone, if I just put my sub a bit louder)
And some cancellation dips are appearing, the first reflection points on the front and side walls are untreated.
The graph is unsmoothed

bass response 02.jpg
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:53 pm

If anyone can tell me what this tells me, I would be quite thankful !

waterfall 02.jpg
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The 25Hz resonance is the 1,0,0 mode, the highest ridge in the waterfall coincides with the 71.6Hz 1,1,1 that comes out of Bobgolds mode calculator:

63.6 hz 5% 5.42 : 2.71 : 1.35 (1,0,1 Tangential)
65.5 hz 2.9% 5.26 : 2.63 : 1.31 (0,2,0 Axial)
66.9 hz 2% 5.15 : 2.57 : 1.29 (0,1,1 Tangential)
70.2 hz 4.7% 4.91 : 2.45 : 1.23 (1,2,0 Tangential)
71.6 hz 1.9% 4.81 : 2.41 : 1.2 (1,1,1 Oblique)

the 50 and 58 Hz ridges coincide with 2,0,0 and 0,0,1

But I haven't got a clue as to this is really bad or not.
The space starts to sound quite good for classical stuff (I can actually hear the hall in the actual recording...), rock is still a bit rough and thick.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:04 am

Ido wrote:
Ytong sucks. I'm happy for u, but how do you know u don't have TL weakness?
maybe it just doesnt show it's face cause Belge noise is nice and friendly...

advice from a goat on inner room acoustics: try to think of not only alive and reflective in a big way (which maybe alive yet too harsh), but also in small-warm patterns. get my goat?


Concerning the TL weakness: I did some tests at full level (as loud as I will play in the studio) and listened in the next room with the doors closed. Nothing.
In the other direction, when my wife is playing the piano loud (85-90dB peaks in room) I cannot tell in the studio if she is playing or not.

In the piano room and the rest of the house we have an ambient noise around 33-34 dB, so there is no way for me to measure the exact TL between the rooms, unless I go above 120dB in my studio.
My guess is it must be above 70 dB of isolation, close to the 80s.

It must be as I thought from the outset: a thick enough Ytong wall (24cm) with enough weight on it (the concrete slab 23 cm of the second floor is resting on these outer walls, and of course the rest of the walls + roof) / 10 cm airgap with 5cm of rockwool inside / 15 cm Silka (limestone/cement/sand mix) on a floating floor does NOT give a coincidence dip. At all.
When playing loud pop/rock I can barely hear a faint thumpthump going on in the next room.
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Re: classical editing/mastering studio build

Postby Yannick » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:15 am

These measurements are with some nice polycylindricals on front and back wall.
Yes, I did not listen to a lot of the advice, I weant ahead and did this BEFORE treating the side walls/reflection points.
:oops:
I just want to postpone the decision between absorbtion and deflection on the side walls.
I also corrected low bass by adjusting my sub (EQ/level/position). This looks better now.

My biggest problem is probably the broader dip around 160 Hz.
The narrow dip at 93 Hz is probably a node between the side walls. On the waterfall it disappears after 100 ms, the 160 Hz just stays - could anyone explain the difference ?

bass response 03 (incl polys).jpg
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The only difference between the previous waterfall and this one is eight big polys and a much louder sub (hence the louderr 25Hz mode)
I have the impression my polys are cleaning up a lot of low end as well.

waterfall 03 (incl polys).jpg
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