Asphaltic Membrane for side Walls.

[Demian]

Guys, Do you know if I use asphaltic membrane w/aluminium (the ones that is used in roofs for moisture) in the side walls and a layer of gypsum is better for the TL ?
http://www.ormiflex.com/productos_membr ... eelaborada
The order is (Ex. to In.) : 15cm Wall - Membrane - 12.5mm Gypsum layer.

What dou you think ? ?  
PLEASE I ONLY WANT TO KNOW IF I COULD GET A BETTER TL WITH THIS IN THE WALL... I KNOW, AFTER THAT I GOING TO BUILD ANOTHER ROOM WITH GYPSUM IN THE INTERIOR.
JUST TO GIVE THE WALL MORE ISALATION.

[Robert2004]

The web site says it's a vapor barrier. I didn't see to what degree it is, with and without the aluminum, but my understanding from buildingscience.com is that in general, you need to be careful about overdoing your vapor barrier, and only use it in the correct location (inside typically, but maybe outside in real hot and humid locations, see the website). Make sure you allow moisture to not get trapped anywhere. Build the structure to allow for drying. Buena suerte.

Robert

[Rod Gervais]

Guys, Do you know if I use asphaltic membrane w/aluminium (the ones that is used in roofs for moisture) in the side walls and a layer of gypsum is better for the TL ?
http://www.ormiflex.com/productos_membr ... eelaborada
The order is (Ex. to In.) : 15cm Wall - Membrane - 12.5mm Gypsum layer.

What dou you think ? ?  
PLEASE I ONLY WANT TO KNOW IF I COULD GET A BETTER TL WITH THIS IN THE WALL... I KNOW, AFTER THAT I GOING TO BUILD ANOTHER ROOM WITH GYPSUM IN THE INTERIOR.
JUST TO GIVE THE WALL MORE ISALATION.

Demian,

I answered this for you on another forum................

Rod

[zolo]

Guys, Do you know if I use asphaltic membrane w/aluminium (the ones that is used in roofs for moisture) in the side walls and a layer of gypsum is better for the TL ?
http://www.ormiflex.com/productos_membr ... eelaborada
The order is (Ex. to In.) : 15cm Wall - Membrane - 12.5mm Gypsum layer.

What dou you think ? ?  
PLEASE I ONLY WANT TO KNOW IF I COULD GET A BETTER TL WITH THIS IN THE WALL... I KNOW, AFTER THAT I GOING TO BUILD ANOTHER ROOM WITH GYPSUM IN THE INTERIOR.
JUST TO GIVE THE WALL MORE ISALATION.

Demian,

I answered this for you on another forum................

Rod

How about a link so you don't need to repeat yourself for the rest of us who want to know?

Owens-Corning makes a very heavy 3' x 33' asphalt/rubberized roofing roll that sells for $35.
I'm very curious what it would do when used as a barrier material.

Thanks.

[bert stoltenborg]

http://www.recording.org/modules.php?na ... ic&t=33336

Eric suggests that using Brian's Green Glue between two layers of sheet rock can yield spectacular results.

[Demian]

Well, well! I didnt know that you people are everywhere!!  :P  I thought there was different people.  :oops:

Anyway,

Some people (several sellers) told me that it was a good material for isolation (only for that) but I knew that it was an improvisation and it was not proven professionally like insulating material.
Some told me that the aluminium is good for High sounds, as guitars or keyboards and the asphalt was good for isolation.
Its not an expensive material so I could try, but the big problem is (like Robert said) that it will act as vapor barrier in the side walls, and I dont wanna have moisture problems in a future.

So If i choose not to take the chance, what is the best isolation material to buy ? (I know that is will be density materials like bricks, cement, I mean some kind of barriers).

I have my room in a terrace and it`s in the middle of it, so if the sound cross the walls, I will have problems with my neighbors.  The 20m2 room is made of 15cm brick wall (not hollow) with cement and with no windows.
I`m going to build another room inside using 3 gypsum layers and 100mm wool (by square meter (m2)) leaving 70mm of air cavity between the brick wall and the gypsum board , but I think the wool is not very good for isolation, so that my real problem that I dont know what is the best isolation material for my room.

Thanx,
Demian.

[Rod Gervais]

Well, well! I didnt know that you people are everywhere!!  :P  I thought there was different people.  :oops:

Anyway,

Some people (several sellers) told me that it was a good material for isolation (only for that) but I knew that it was an improvisation and it was not proven professionally like insulating material.
Some told me that the aluminium is good for High sounds, as guitars or keyboards and the asphalt was good for isolation.
Its not an expensive material so I could try, but the big problem is (like Robert said) that it will act as vapor barrier in the side walls, and I dont wanna have moisture problems in a future.

So If i choose not to take the chance, what is the best isolation material to buy ? (I know that is will be density materials like bricks, cement, I mean some kind of barriers).

I have my room in a terrace and it`s in the middle of it, so if the sound cross the walls, I will have problems with my neighbors.  The 20m2 room is made of 15cm brick wall (not hollow) with cement and with no windows.
I`m going to build another room inside using 3 gypsum layers and 100mm wool (by square meter (m2)) leaving 70mm of air cavity between the brick wall and the gypsum board , but I think the wool is not very good for isolation, so that my real problem that I dont know what is the best isolation material for my room.  .

Demian,

you already know the answer - it's mass - so the more drywall (which is generally the cheapest choice) the better.

That having been said - I too am impressed with the performance of green glue - and find it to be a fairly cost effective replacement for a sheet of drywall.  But i do not know the availability for it in Argentina.........

You'll probably find that flanking is going to be your biggest challenge if you're starting off with 3 layers of drywall.......  that would be my best guess...........  but it would still help to kow more about your construction.

Sincerely,

Rod

[Demian]

Well, well! I didnt know that you people are everywhere!!  :P  I thought there was different people.  :oops:

Anyway,

Some people (several sellers) told me that it was a good material for isolation (only for that) but I knew that it was an improvisation and it was not proven professionally like insulating material.
Some told me that the aluminium is good for High sounds, as guitars or keyboards and the asphalt was good for isolation.
Its not an expensive material so I could try, but the big problem is (like Robert said) that it will act as vapor barrier in the side walls, and I dont wanna have moisture problems in a future.

So If i choose not to take the chance, what is the best isolation material to buy ? (I know that is will be density materials like bricks, cement, I mean some kind of barriers).

I have my room in a terrace and it`s in the middle of it, so if the sound cross the walls, I will have problems with my neighbors.  The 20m2 room is made of 15cm brick wall (not hollow) with cement and with no windows.
I`m going to build another room inside using 3 gypsum layers and 100mm wool (by square meter (m2)) leaving 70mm of air cavity between the brick wall and the gypsum board , but I think the wool is not very good for isolation, so that my real problem that I dont know what is the best isolation material for my room.  .

Demian,

you already know the answer - it's mass - so the more drywall (which is generally the cheapest choice) the better.

That having been said - I too am impressed with the performance of green glue - and find it to be a fairly cost effective replacement for a sheet of drywall.  But i do not know the availability for it in Argentina.........

You'll probably find that flanking is going to be your biggest challenge if you're starting off with 3 layers of drywall.......  that would be my best guess...........  but it would still help to kow more about your construction.

Sincerely,

Rod

Yes, OK!... but I have to isolate 120db aprox to stop the drum, guitar etc sounds and not to let it get outside,  so my 15cm drywall stops 30db aprox. and I still have to stop 50db more.(40db permission by law )  So you tell me that if I dont build another drywall with cement it is imposible for isolate that 50db some how ? Despite of all absorbtion materials as gypsum layers, wool,foams, wood panels, barriers of 3mm, etc ?
So can I get a conclusion that all absorption materials are useful ONLY for better sound inside but not stop any sound for outside ? ?.

Thanx,
Demian

[zolo]

There seems to be a contradiction, or at least a misunderstanding, in terms of what fears are actually valid when using anything that may create a vapor barrier.  On one hand, we're told to stop air in order to stop sound transmission; On the other, we're told to fear creating a vapor barrier situation that may promote mold or rot in our buildings.
Paints and primers can be vapor barriers.  So, what's the difference between using loaded vinyl on the floors, walls, and ceiling as compared to something like the asphalt roofing material mentioned in this thread?  

In any case, some method of HVAC must be used to control humidity and supply fresh air within a tightly sealed environment.
Is rot or mold from vapor barriers a problem in the structure outside the bubble we've created, or are the fears expressed about vapor barriers only caused when the humidity control and fresh air internally is insufficient?

[Robert2004]

...we're told to stop air in order to stop sound transmission

I'm no expert, but I think air and moisture need to be considered as not completely equivalent when considering moisture movement in and out of a structure and sealing for air.

On the other, we're told to fear creating a vapor barrier situation that may promote mold or rot in our buildings.
Paints and primers can be vapor barriers.

Exactly; the site gives details on how paints can be effective as barriers depending on the climate -- they can allow just the right amount of moisture to pass but not block it entirely -- read the info, it is very informative. It's not a black and white thing, where you need no moisture barrier or a 100% one. The original post didn't state whether the room is in a basement or not. That is another factor. In a basement, part of the year, moisture travels from the ground through the foundation wall inside. Slap up a 100% moisture barrier, and you trap the moisture and can cause problems. I didn't say not to use the product in question; I just said find out how much of a barrier it is and only use it in the proper location, and only if it allows a proper amount of moisture to pass. My Spanish isn't that good, but I didn't see the product listed for use in walls. That may be a clue. On a related note, I've seen that for basement walls, extruded polystyrene (XPS) can be useful for insulation and reduction of condensation on the concrete wall. It allows *some* moisture to travel through.

So, what's the difference between using loaded vinyl on the floors, walls, and ceiling as compared to something like the asphalt roofing material mentioned in this thread?

I think the loaded vinyl, if sealed well on the edges, would be a highly effective moisture barrier. You'd want to take that into consideration in a design (i.e., it would likely be just as much or even more of a concern if you need some moisture to pass.).

In any case, some method of HVAC must be used to control humidity and supply fresh air within a tightly sealed environment. Is rot or mold from vapor barriers a problem in the structure outside the bubble we've created, or are the fears expressed about vapor barriers only caused when the humidity control and fresh air internally is insufficient?

If a room is properly ventilated and humidity controlled 100% of the time, that would go a long ways toward helping the situation. Part of the year and depending on climate, moisture wants to travel from outside in, so I'd just be careful to ensure moisture doesn't get trapped between the outside wall and a highly resistent barrier on the inner wall. As I say, this is just what I've gleaned from the web site and a friend in the energy field. Read the docs multiple times, and consider getting some informed advise for your structure. I'm only saying this to help the guy not create problems.

Robert

[zolo]

I think the loaded vinyl, if sealed well on the edges, would be a highly effective moisture barrier. You'd want to take that into consideration in a design (i.e., it would likely be just as much or even more of a concern if you need some moisture to pass.).
.....
If a room is properly ventilated and humidity controlled 100% of the time, that would go a long ways toward helping the situation. Part of the year and depending on climate, moisture wants to travel from outside in, so I'd just be careful to ensure moisture doesn't get trapped between the outside wall and a highly resistent barrier on the inner wall. As I say, this is just what I've gleaned from the web site and a friend in the energy field. Read the docs multiple times, and consider getting some informed advise for your structure. I'm only saying this to help the guy not create problems.

Robert

This gets primarily to my point of the contradictory information.

Many people selling vinyl recommend overlapping seams, glued or taped, for entire wall/floor/ceiling application in order to stop sound.  However, they generally don't mention any problems this may create with vapor.

Salesmen can't be trusted beyond representing their interests in what they sell.

In that sense, and in terms of a vapor barrier problem, if one exists with loaded vinyl it will also exist with rubberized asphalt.
And, if mass and the stoppage of air transmission is the primary reason for the promotion of loaded vinyl as a sound barrier, it stands to reason that rubberized asphalt will do the same job for far less money.

It's all about cutting through the rhetoric and finding out the truth.
Rubberized asphalt roofing material is about $0.30 a square foot.
If it's effective, it's easy to see why vinyl salesmen wouldn't want the word to get out.

This reminds me of the fact that for every guy who says soundboard is a joke, there's a BBC pdf report by an acoustical engineer who says it's vital for creating a lower resonance in a layered gypsum wall structure.  

The truth is out there.  We just need to weed out the hype.
;-)